The wow factor

Ok, I know they have to do very little work to obtain this feature set: all they do is package a number of plugins created by third parties and stuff them together but... this (http://www.myeclipseide.com/ContentExpress-display-ceid-66.html) is definitely what would make me "wow" as a feature set in the commercial IDE I am buying. I'm not saying that web development features are meaningless, they are indeed very important: only, I'm not sure this will be enough.

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Davide Baroncelli wrote:

Ok, I know they have to do very little work to obtain this feature set: all they do is package a number of plugins created by third parties and stuff them together but... this (http://www.myeclipseide.com/ContentExpress-display-ceid-66.html) is definitely what would make me "wow" as a feature set in the commercial IDE I am buying. I'm not saying that web development features are meaningless, they are indeed very important: only, I'm not sure this will be enough.

Which part of MyEclipse are you talking about?
UML, JSF Developer , Hibernate 2 Enhancements, Tapestry Integration, Advanced Oracle Dbase
Connector?

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There are already several UML tools that integrate with IntelliJ. Why should they create another one?

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In article <20493488.1116870727773.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>,
Marc Stock <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote:

There are already several UML tools that integrate with IntelliJ. Why should
they create another one?


I think in general deep down it's because people don't want to buy
anything extra with IDEA. They want to buy the Ferrari, and get the
insurance and gas for free. I think that's the deep intent of comments
like this. It can't be that they think Eclipse gets it for free because
there are a slew of commercial plugins for Eclipse with functionality
which is already included in IDEA (MyEclipse comes to mind).

I general I think that JetBrains would gain from bundling, even if
they're demo versions, commercial plugins with its release to let people
see what's available. It benefits both the plugin makers and JetBrains,
and gives an opportunity for the plugin makers to perhaps offer
incentives to buy their plugin at a discount.

2 plugins I can think of which would be outstanding to have are Visual
Paradigm UML, and YourKit profiler. I mention VP because the other UML
tool that is available for idea (IntelliUML I believe) doesn't work on
OSX from what I've read... so to me that's useless.

R

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How about creating several "flavors" of intellij? a-la IntelliJ Community
Edition, IntelliJ Developer Edition, IntelliJ Enterprise Edition, or
something of the sort (don't catch me on specific flavor name ;)

The community edition would come with no plugins, or only trial versions of
them, or something...the developer edition with some of the plugins, and
the enterprise edition with all of them...

of course, the cost would scale from community to enterprise.

"Robert S. Sfeir" <robert@NOSPAMCodepuccino.dom> wrote in message
news:robert-3C7E65.15520723052005@mail.intellij.net...

In article <20493488.1116870727773.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>,
Marc Stock <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote:

>
>> There are already several UML tools that integrate with IntelliJ. Why
>> should
>> they create another one?
>

I think in general deep down it's because people don't want to buy
anything extra with IDEA. They want to buy the Ferrari, and get the
insurance and gas for free. I think that's the deep intent of comments
like this. It can't be that they think Eclipse gets it for free because
there are a slew of commercial plugins for Eclipse with functionality
which is already included in IDEA (MyEclipse comes to mind).

>

I general I think that JetBrains would gain from bundling, even if
they're demo versions, commercial plugins with its release to let people
see what's available. It benefits both the plugin makers and JetBrains,
and gives an opportunity for the plugin makers to perhaps offer
incentives to buy their plugin at a discount.

>

2 plugins I can think of which would be outstanding to have are Visual
Paradigm UML, and YourKit profiler. I mention VP because the other UML
tool that is available for idea (IntelliUML I believe) doesn't work on
OSX from what I've read... so to me that's useless.

>

R



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NO! None of that bullshit. One working and excellent version with a good price, just the way it is. There's no point in bundling up this or that way either. I've never ever EVER used and liked a product comprised of N difference pieces of "assorted cookies". I want an IDE. When I need a UML tool, I will look for one.

When you bundle different products and slap a shiny label on it, you dictate what your users perceive as the best product for their tastes. And bundling tends to be done by all the wrong types of people. I tends to be done by marketing droids. When was the last time any marketing droid did anything right as far as producing a product that is actually good? HINT: they don't produce anything, they sell "assorted cookies" using shiny labels.

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Patrik Andersson wrote:

>NO! None of that bullshit. One working and excellent version with a good price, just the way it is.
>


What if, when purchasing an IDEA license, you could tick a box and add
a "package" like "Clover+Yourkit" @50% of the price?
I know people who would jump that ship.

Alain

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NO! None of that bullshit. One working and
excellent version with a good price, just the way it is.

+1

We know that comparisons are not very fair but when deciding to buy,
people use them. If there were more versions of IntelliJ, than always
but always the minimal version will be compared(to the disadvantage of
IntelliJ).

Ahmed.

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NO! None of that bullshit. One working and excellent
version with a good price, just the way it is.
There's no point in bundling up this or that way
either. I've never ever EVER used and liked a product
comprised of N difference pieces of "assorted
cookies". I want an IDE. When I need a UML tool, I
will look for one.


So I assume you don't use a debugger? That's not "an ide": it's a debugger. Standalone debuggers exist, so why bundling them with an ide? After all what is an IDE? Ok, the word "integrated" could mean something, but do we really need a profiler in a development environment today?

What we need is GOOD integrated tools. The problem is that most of the times integration means bloatware, but this is not always the case. Consistency, simplicity, user-friendliness in general are what make a tool a pleasure to use, and having a single well integrated tool for profiling is better than not having it.

I know that at least a good profiler well integrated with idea exist: the point I'm making is, simply, that such a feature should be available in idea for no additional price (or a little additional price), simply because most of the competitors are now bundling one. And because I need one. ;)

The same is true in my opinion for a lot of smaller tools, such as spring integration, tapestry or hibernate: I work with them every day, and I know that a small amount of work in order to integrate a couple of "spring-related" or "hibernate-related" features would make an enormous difference in my work. But IDEA is choosing a different direction: a plethora of enhancements to editing features that weight much less in my daily work.

I do NOT want to write plugins: IDEA is the tool I'm working on, my company pays for it (well, it's only 5 licenses, but we don't need more...), I really can't see why I must do extra work in order to empower a tool I'm buying. I find it not fascinating at all, frankly.

When you bundle different products and slap a shiny
label on it, you dictate what your users perceive as
the best product for their tastes. And bundling tends
to be done by all the wrong types of people.


I'm not saying IDEA should bundle other tools. I'm saying IDEA should cover a much broader feature set: the way they'd do it is entirely in the hands of the group that makes decisions about the IDE. I trust them, since I find they've made good decisions in the past. ;)

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So I assume you don't use a debugger? That's not "an
ide": it's a debugger. Standalone debuggers exist, so
why bundling them with an ide? After all what is an
IDE? Ok, the word "integrated" could mean something,
but do we really need a profiler in a development
environment today?


To make everyone happy, JetBrains should partner with YourKit to offer a bundled version of IDEA + YJP for a special discounted price :)

That being said, there is some truth in all this profiling conundrum. In the dark ages, very few programmers used a debugger in his/her day-to-day activity -- a debugger was an extreme tool used only when things have gone real bad. Today, thanks to the tight debugger integration in development environments, it's hard to imagine a day that goes by without a handful of debugging sessions. I think the same will happen to profilers -- they will only become part of the standard development toolset when most IDE's out there come with one.

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Just a quick correction, IntelliUML Teresa officially supports OSX since version 1.2 released on 19 March.

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In article <11235483.1116938733969.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>,
Beto Software <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote:

Just a quick correction, IntelliUML Teresa officially supports OSX since
version 1.2 released on 19 March.


Ah cool, now I can go look at it :)

Thanks
R

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Perhaps a better approach is for IDEA power users to provide a list of their favorite
plugins. That way, we could look in the list and see what combination of plugins that
others actually found useful for a particular type of development.

I would at least want the following info:

- Your job title
- Your name (and/or link to confluence profile)
- Your company/url (optional)
- Your development focus (WebApps, EJB, Web Services, POJO, Swing GUI, Business logic,
Persistence Layer, etc.)
- Year you started doing software development
- Year you started using IDEA

- For each plugin:
- Plugin Name
- Version
- URL
- Open or closed source
- License url
- Cost
- Level of need (from "Can't live without it" to "Nice toy to have").
- Best features
- Worst problems
- Wish list
- Level of support by plugin author(s).
- Comparable products/plugins

It would be nice if there was a way to download the whole list of plugins all at once.
Maybe it could be tied into the plugin manager: add a tab "favorites" with a dropdown of
names that would display the user info above and filter the list to include only their
favorites. A single button click could download the whole filtered list or a subset chosen
by the user.

It would also be nice if power users could automate the generation of the list from their
idea configuration so that they only have to manually enter the personal and subjective
information.

If this was entered in Confluence
it would be more controlled than here or on the twiki and it would be something that the
IntelliJ marketing people and others could easily refer to.

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Perhaps a better approach is for IDEA power users to
provide a list of their favorite
plugins. That way, we could look in the list and see
what combination of plugins that
others actually found useful for a particular type of
development.


What I don't understand is: why should IDEA power users work in order to make idea more popular? I do want IDEA to work for me, not having to work for IDEA!

In other words: if jetbrainers will be able to put a complete enough feature set in the product I will continue to promote it in my company and outside, but if the current trend will continue I don't really see why I should post a list of my favorite plugins.

( Moreover: one of my favorite plugins was the properties editor, which is now dead ).

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