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FAzle AreFin wrote:

When is the final release date of IntelliJ IDEA 5?


Looking at the current state of the EAPs, hopefully not tooo soon. But
hopefuly not too far away either.

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In article <19493568.1115009959870.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net>,
FAzle AreFin <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote:

When is the final release date of IntelliJ IDEA 5?


August was mentioned a while back.

R

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Really? :)
At least I hear this assumption for the first time!

-


Maxim Shafirov
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

In article <19493568.1115009959870.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net>,
FAzle AreFin <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote:

>> When is the final release date of IntelliJ IDEA 5?
>>

August was mentioned a while back.

R



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In article <c8a8a1bf9c6f8c71d4e4fa15932@news.jetbrains.com>,
Maxim Shafirov (JetBrains) <max@jetbrains.com> wrote:

Really? :)
At least I hear this assumption for the first time!


Humm... ok need to search forums... I thought I saw it

R

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In article <robert-523987.09384802052005@mail.intellij.net>,
"Robert S. Sfeir" <robert@NOSPAMCodepuccino.dom> wrote:

In article <c8a8a1bf9c6f8c71d4e4fa15932@news.jetbrains.com>,
Maxim Shafirov (JetBrains) <max@jetbrains.com> wrote:

Really? :)
At least I hear this assumption for the first time!


Humm... ok need to search forums... I thought I saw it

R


Found the reference but the comment was not made by someone from
JetBrains.

R

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<rant-mode>
The IDE arena is surprisingly active since the release of IDEA 4.5 (Pallada).
When Pallada was released, IDEA was on a very comfortable position as the best
IDE out there, hands down. There were some contenders, of course, but none would
get close to the greater user experience provided by IDEA.

Has this changed? In my opinion, yeah, significantly. The latest releases of
Eclipse, including the Web Tools Platform brings Eclipse to a level of
functionality only achieved by commercial plugins before. This means there will
be one less reason to buy a commercial product, unfortunately. The new releases
for NetBeans are also much more polished and incorporates a great deal of
functionality. OmniCore released their new cross platform IDE, which still
has a long way to go but already shows a promising product. Even Microsoft is
raising the bar, previewing the new refactoring functionality in Visual Studio.

At the same time, what happened to IDEA, really? If some cosmic force fixed all
critical bugs on Irida and it was ready for release tomorrow, what do we have?
Primitive support for javascript (but still better than what most other tools
have to offer), a couple of new XML features (schema validation) and a few new
inspections. Maybe a new refactoring or two.

What do I want to say with all this nonsense? Just think about the context: we'
re talking about release dates. So, closing this wrecked train of thought, I
really hope Irida is not released any time soon. I'd love to see Irida
feature chart reworked to better fit the new IDE arena. We need a release with
a "wow" factor again... just don't ask me what this could be.
</rant-mode>

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Marcus

>I really hope Irida is not released any time soon. I'd love to see Irida
>feature chart reworked to better fit the new IDE arena. We need a release with
>a "wow" factor again... just don't ask me what this could be.

>


As a user, I'd like to see 2, 3 or 4 public (non-EAP) releases a year.
JB, and all, what do you think?

Alain

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Personally I think Language API will end up being a huge feature that all
IDE's will adopt. Right now you say "primitive supoport for javascript" but
I think eventually it will be "smart support for javascript, groovy, Jython,
JRuby, Tcl, C#" and who knows what other languages people will write plugins
for. Also, the HTML/CSS support is, as far as I've seen, better (for me)
than any other web development IDE like Dreamweaver or Nvu.

However, I think you're right, looking at http://intellij.net/eap/products/idea/irida.jsp
does not look that impressive considering the huge new features that other
IDE's have come out with lately. Eclipse still has incremental compilation,
CodeGuide still has back-in-time debugging, NetBeans has that profiler people
keep talking about. I think IDEA will be okay no matter what, but maybe JB
developers should throw in something big and flashy, that would take only
a few weeks of work (so Irida would be a few weeks past original deadline),
but would convince people to upgrade.

Of course JB probably knows better than you and I about all this. They've
been releasing IDEA for years and they probably know what will work and what
won't.

<rant-mode>
The IDE arena is surprisingly active since the release of IDEA 4.5
(Pallada).
When Pallada was released, IDEA was on a very comfortable position as
the best
IDE out there, hands down. There were some contenders, of course, but
none would
get close to the greater user experience provided by IDEA.
Has this changed? In my opinion, yeah, significantly. The latest
releases of
Eclipse, including the Web Tools Platform brings Eclipse to a level of
functionality only achieved by commercial plugins before. This means
there will
be one less reason to buy a commercial product, unfortunately. The new
releases
for NetBeans are also much more polished and incorporates a great deal
of
functionality. OmniCore released their new cross platform IDE, which
still
has a long way to go but already shows a promising product. Even
Microsoft is
raising the bar, previewing the new refactoring functionality in
Visual Studio.
At the same time, what happened to IDEA, really? If some cosmic force
fixed all critical bugs on Irida and it was ready for release
tomorrow, what do we have? Primitive support for javascript (but still
better than what most other tools have to offer), a couple of new XML
features (schema validation) and a few new inspections. Maybe a new
refactoring or two.

What do I want to say with all this nonsense? Just think about the
context: we'
re talking about release dates. So, closing this wrecked train of
thought, I
really hope Irida is not released any time soon. I'd love to
see Irida
feature chart reworked to better fit the new IDE arena. We need a
release with
a "wow" factor again... just don't ask me what this could be.
</rant-mode>




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We need a release with
a "wow" factor again...

+1

Ahmed.

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As a user, I'd like to see 2, 3 or 4 public (non-EAP) releases a year.
JB, and all, what do you think?


+1

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Agreed.

The length of time betwen releases seems to be a little long (to me anyway).

I think I'd like to see incremental upgrades, that add a smaller group of features, but are released more often.

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As a user, I'd like to see 2, 3 or 4 public (non-EAP) releases a year.
JB, and all, what do you think?

+1

Ahmed.

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+1 from me as well, though I think one other major area that idea should
improve upon is the documentation of the openapi, which is basically
non-existant. Perhaps hiring a full time documentor for the task would help.


Ahmed Mohombe wrote:

>> We need a release with
>> a "wow" factor again...
>

+1

>

Ahmed.

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Personally I think Language API will end up being a
huge feature that all
IDE's will adopt.


I have high hopes for the language API as well, but this could be taken one step further. The OpenAPI needs to leave the current state of "arcane secret" to something more open (duh) and documented.

An IDEA release with a full set of detailed, comprehensive OpenAPI documentation would be a big plus, really. The WoW factor could come from the statement "Complete plug-in support", and market it in a similar way Eclipse does.

Right now you say "primitive
supoport for javascript" but
I think eventually it will be "smart support for
javascript, groovy, Jython,
JRuby, Tcl, C#" and who knows what other languages
people will write plugins
for.


I hope you're right! I'm particularly interested in JRuby myself. Now if only they bring it up to ruby 1.8 compliance...

Also, the HTML/CSS support is, as far as I've
seen, better (for me)
than any other web development IDE like Dreamweaver
or Nvu.


Yes, except we don't have a visual designer. And comparing to Visual Studio, we are unfortunately still lagging behind for just a bit.

Now, if you add Fabrique to the equation, things are different. Unfortunatelly, Fabrique is not for everyone. Most people out there are already commited to a web framework (as much as they hate it) and can't have the luxury to use something like Fabrique.

Of course JB probably knows better than you and I
about all this. They've
been releasing IDEA for years and they probably know
what will work and what
won't.


Of course, I'm not trying to say what JetBrains should do. I'm just providing feedback, which they may or may not find some value in it.

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Ahem... http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/newfeatures.html

If JetBrains doesn't want to get the 'when is the release' coming soon
means a lot of things :D Maybe they should adopt the way Apple does
it... IDEA is coming in Q3 2005 :D

R

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Robert

>Maybe they should adopt the way Apple does
>it
>

Great. So we'd all have to sign a NDA before downloading a new release,
and wouldn't be allowed to talk about the EAP, except between us, the
donut people!


Alain

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In article <d55nlt$62o$1@is.intellij.net>,
Alain Ravet <alain.ravet@biz.tiscali.be> wrote:

Robert

>Maybe they should adopt the way Apple does
>it
>

Great. So we'd all have to sign a NDA before downloading a new release,
and wouldn't be allowed to talk about the EAP, except between us, the
donut people!


I was referring to the way apple announces product release dates in the
future, don't take 1 line out and make my comment completely out of
context. :) I knew I hated that select text and click reply feature
:)

R

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Marcus

>
>>Also, the HTML/CSS support is, as far as I've seen, better (for me)
>>than any other web development IDE like Dreamweaver or Nvu.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, except we don't have a visual designer. And comparing to Visual Studio, we are unfortunately still lagging behind for just a bit.
>

>



There is some planned progress in that direction, in Visual Fabrique.
http://www.jetbrains.net/jira/browse/FBQL-405

I hope it will permeate IDEA.

Alain

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+At the same time, what happened to IDEA, really? If some cosmic force fixed all
critical bugs on Irida and it was ready for release tomorrow, what do we have?
Primitive support for javascript (but still better than what most other tools
have to offer), a couple of new XML features (schema validation) and a few new
inspections. Maybe a new refactoring or two+

Partially this seems to be due to the prioritizations for this cycle's task, with restructurings happening before new features. I'm sure breaking out the Language API and restructuring the layout engine will add value commensurate with their effort, but they sure don't lead to any "wow" experiences on their own. On the other hand, I'm sure that a lot of flashier and more immediately useful features on the Irida list could be added onto the product in a very short time (refactorings, fancy XML features, "run failed tests first"), but have for been put off till later in the cycle in favor of infrastructure work.

By my count, JetBrains is adding support for five whole languages to this release (JSP/JSPX, Javascript, HTML, CSS, and properties files), and is committed to greatly expanding support for another (XML). Naturally enough, they are going to do this by abstracting their current product, rather than by reinventing the wheel five times over. While JetBrains certainly has the best refactoring tools in the world available to them, that level of infrastructure rework is bound to take some time.

At least I hope that's what's happening, otherwise they're just dithering.

In this vein, there is one Irida feature that I'm disappointed isn't there yet. The ability to create inspections for non-Java classes needs to be added soonest, so that plugin authors (including me) can add as much value as possible to the newly supported languages. In the HTML space alone, there are probably hundreds of best practices that could be valuably automated.

and a few new inspections

Hope this is a bit of a joke. I'm pretty sure that the current state of IG has over a hundred inspections more than shipped with Pallada, and I've got another thirty or so in reserve. That's without new language support.

--Dave Griffith

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Maybe they should adopt the way Apple does
it... IDEA is coming in Q3 2005 :D

Or maybe something like this :) :
http://www.eclipse.org/org/processes/master-timeline.php

Ahmed.

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&gt; and a few new inspections
&gt;
&gt; Hope this is a bit of a joke. I'm pretty sure that
&gt; the current state of IG has over a hundred
&gt; inspections more than shipped with Pallada, and I've
&gt; got another thirty or so in reserve. That's without
&gt; new language support.

I think the inspections deserve a bit more attention than they get now. IDEA has more and more useful inspections than any other tool I know, even special purpose tools. The new suppression feature and improved user interface in Pallada has made that even better. In combination with very useful features like quick fixes and on-the-fly inspections it is an amazing value for money.

Bas

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In article <2376322.1115041408888.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net>,
mbrito@gmail.com says...

<rant-mode>
The IDE arena is surprisingly active since the release of IDEA 4.5 (Pallada).
When Pallada was released, IDEA was on a very comfortable position as the best
IDE out there, hands down. There were some contenders, of course, but none would
get close to the greater user experience provided by IDEA.

Has this changed? In my opinion, yeah, significantly. The latest releases of
Eclipse, including the Web Tools Platform brings Eclipse to a level of
functionality only achieved by commercial plugins before. This means there will
be one less reason to buy a commercial product, unfortunately. The new releases
for NetBeans are also much more polished and incorporates a great deal of
functionality. OmniCore released their new cross platform IDE, which still
has a long way to go but already shows a promising product. Even Microsoft is
raising the bar, previewing the new refactoring functionality in Visual Studio.

At the same time, what happened to IDEA, really? If some cosmic force fixed all
critical bugs on Irida and it was ready for release tomorrow, what do we have?
Primitive support for javascript (but still better than what most other tools
have to offer), a couple of new XML features (schema validation) and a few new
inspections. Maybe a new refactoring or two.

What do I want to say with all this nonsense? Just think about the context: we'
re talking about release dates. So, closing this wrecked train of thought, I
really hope Irida is not released any time soon. I'd love to see Irida
feature chart reworked to better fit the new IDE arena. We need a release with
a "wow" factor again... just don't ask me what this could be.
</rant-mode>


I would say better support for popular frameworks. For example,
integrated support for both Spring and Hibernate would be welcome via
plug-ins.
--
-


David H. McCoy


-


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and a few new inspections

Hope this is a bit of a joke. I'm pretty sure that
the current state of IG has over a hundred
inspections more than shipped with Pallada, and I've
got another thirty or so in reserve. That's without
new language support.


Damn, you got me. Yep, this was just a provocative joke :) On the other hand, it reinforces my first point about the OpenAPI: one of the best things JetBrains could do right now is to fully document and revise the OpenAPI, so more things like your fantastic IG/IPP can show up.

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I would say better support for popular frameworks.
For example,
integrated support for both Spring and Hibernate
would be welcome via
plug-ins.


Not JetBrains' job, if you ask me. This is the kind of functionality that should come out of the user community, in the form of plugins. JetBrains part on this is to make sure this can happen, providing a fully functional and documented API for writing extensions.

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In article <14579295.1115123359254.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net>,
mbrito@gmail.com says...


I would say better support for popular frameworks.
For example,
integrated support for both Spring and Hibernate
would be welcome via
plug-ins.


Not JetBrains' job, if you ask me. This is the kind of functionality that should come out
of the user community, in the form of plugins. JetBrains part on this is to make sure this can
happen, providing a fully functional and documented API for writing extensions.


Well, neither was CVS, but they implemented CVS as a plug-in. I would
submit that supporting these two increasingly popular frameworks would
have been a better choice than say AspectJ support.

Exclipse has both of these and if the users don't come out, Jetbrains
wouldn't be a bad thing.
--
-


David H. McCoy


-


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Well, neither was CVS, but they implemented CVS as a
plug-in.


I disagree. CVS used widely enough to warrant some first hand effort from the tool developer (JetBrains). Not having CVS support would be a no-no in many sales meetings.

supporting these two increasingly popular
frameworks would
have been a better choice than say AspectJ support.


Yes, exactly for the same reason I outlined above: there are more people using these two frameworks than people using AspectJ.

Exclipse has both of these and if the users don't
come out, Jetbrains
wouldn't be a bad thing.


I'm not saying this is a bad thing for JetBrains to do. It would be very nice if JetBrains had the resources to develop plugins to ease the development with every popular framework out there, but unfortunately this isn't true.

One thing that has been mentioned already is a "certified plugin" program, where some third party plugins would be bundled with IDEA. Actually, this is already working: IG/IPP has been bundled with IDEA since Pallada. We just need more quality plugins to bundle. Wanna take a shot at writing a plugin for Hibernate? :)

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since Pallada. We just need more quality
plugins to bundle.


I know, replying to myself shows the loliness of my soul. But anyway... We need more plugins to bundle, and we need a more capable OpenAPI to write these plugins. I was thinking about writing a Tapestry plugin myself, but doing it right now would be way too hard, if not impossible. Shameless plug: IDEA-624, pweety pweeeese!

http://www.jetbrains.net/jira/browse/IDEA-624

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I agree that JB should provide "a fully functional and documented API for writing extensions." However, that does not mean JB can't develop plugins for things like Hibernate and Spring. One of the (many) reasons I like IntelliJ, is that it does so much "out of the box." I don't HAVE to install all kinds of plugins to make it work halfway decently. One of the things that annoyed me about Eclipse was that it's almost worthless out of the box. You have to install several plugins to make it bearable, imho. Your mileage may very.

If there's enough demand for a Hibernate plugin, why shouldn't JB build it? If they do it, at least you know it will kick ass. Certainly, Hibernate would have been a better plugin choice for them to add than AspectJ but, at the time, it was a toss-up.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I love a lot of the plugins that have been developed by the community. I use Rearranger, LineMover, SequencePlugin, Copywright, GeneratetoString, IdeaJad, HungryBackspace, IG, RemoteSynchronizer, and Lyosome all the time. I also use the JProfiler plugin but, obviously, that's not a freebee.

Actually, this just made me think that JB should have a contest for best plugin that people could vote on and the winner would get a free JB product or upgrade, etc.

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In article <11069641.1115210284976.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net>,
mbrito@gmail.com says...

Well, neither was CVS, but they implemented CVS as a
plug-in.


I disagree. CVS used widely enough to warrant some first hand effort from the tool developer (JetBrains). Not having CVS support would be a no-no in many sales meetings.


And they followed up with Subversion and Perforce. Both support for
increasing popular tools. As plugins.

I think we are saying the same thing. More plugins would be nice.
However, since these two haven't been done, I would like to see JB step
up.

supporting these two increasingly popular
frameworks would
have been a better choice than say AspectJ support.


Yes, exactly for the same reason I outlined above: there are more people using these two frameworks than people using AspectJ.

Exclipse has both of these and if the users don't
come out, Jetbrains
wouldn't be a bad thing.


I'm not saying this is a bad thing for JetBrains to do.
It would be very nice if JetBrains had the resources to develop plugins to
ease the development with every popular framework out there, but unfortunately this isn't true.


Agreed. That's why I left out things like Struts, Tapestry, and JSF! :)

One thing that has been mentioned already is a "certified plugin" program,
where some third party plugins would be bundled with IDEA. Actually, this
is already working: IG/IPP has been bundled with IDEA since Pallada.
We just need more quality plugins to bundle. Wanna take a shot at writing a plugin for Hibernate? :)


I'm giving the Spring one some serious thought. I'm very interested in
the new SDK and would like a tool to "leave a mark".

--
-


David H. McCoy


-


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In article <10871464.1115237839702.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net>,
no_mail@jetbrains.com says...

I agree that JB should provide "a fully functional and documented API for writing extensions." However, that does not mean JB can't develop plugins for things like Hibernate and Spring. One of the (many) reasons I like IntelliJ, is that it does so much "out of the box." I don't HAVE to install all kinds of plugins to make it work halfway decently. One of the things that annoyed me about Eclipse was that it's almost worthless out of the box. You have to install

several plugins to make it bearable, imho. Your mileage may very.


If there's enough demand for a Hibernate plugin, why shouldn't JB build it? If they do it, at least you know it will kick ass. Certainly, Hibernate would have been a better plugin choice for them to add than AspectJ but, at the time, it was a toss-up.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I love a lot of the plugins that have been developed by the community. I use Rearranger, LineMover, SequencePlugin, Copywright, GeneratetoString, IdeaJad, HungryBackspace, IG, RemoteSynchronizer, and Lyosome all the time. I also use the JProfiler plugin but, obviously, that's not a freebee.

Actually, this just made me think that JB should have a contest for best plugin that people could vote on and the winner would get a free JB product or upgrade, etc.


Indeed. There is gold out there. SimpleUML, FCTodo, amongst those you
mentioned. My biggest motivation is that I think JB would get bang for
the buck. For my develoment, the Struts, Spring, Hibernate(SSH as I call
it) is a very powerful combination, and Spring and Hibernate are really
flying up in visibility.

I think that directly supporting those two tools, like included X-doclet
like annotations for Hibernate 2 and 3, and Ideal smart support of
Spring xml files(like missing ref ids) would be big.
--
-


David H. McCoy


-


0

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