POLL: Linux installer

Once upon the time we've discovered that there's no need for installer under
MacOS X since it is much easier to install an application by copying from
the mountable disk image.

It seems having Windows-like (wizard) installer is mauvais ton under Linuses
as well.

So what do you think would be a proper way to distribute IDEA for various
Linux platforms (Red-hat, Gentoo, Fedora Core, etc.)?

32 comments
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Maxim Shafirov wrote:

Once upon the time we've discovered that there's no need for installer
under MacOS X since it is much easier to install an application by
copying from the mountable disk image.

It seems having Windows-like (wizard) installer is mauvais ton under
Linuses as well.

So what do you think would be a proper way to distribute IDEA for
various Linux platforms (Red-hat, Gentoo, Fedora Core, etc.)?


Maxim - I already have RPMs and a Yum reposity for the EAPs that I've
been running for about a year or so. Ages ages ago I emailed Eugene for
explicit permision to do this but he didn't seem to like the idea.

Currently the RPMS I'm writing don't integrate with the JPackage system
at all, but I'm fine with that for now.

If you want more information about it, or an interest in looking at my
.spec files ( should work for all RPM based systems ) - I use it on
Fedora Code 2, and 3.

It's nice being able to type:

  1. yum install idea-jre idea-complete


then find IntelliJ IDEA listed in the Development menus in GNOME/KDE,
all spanky and nice...

Mark



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Maxim Shafirov wrote:

Once upon the time we've discovered that there's no need for installer
under MacOS X since it is much easier to install an application by
copying from the mountable disk image.

It seems having Windows-like (wizard) installer is mauvais ton under
Linuses as well.

So what do you think would be a proper way to distribute IDEA for
various Linux platforms (Red-hat, Gentoo, Fedora Core, etc.)?


Maxim - I already have RPMs and a Yum reposity for the EAPs that I've
been running for about a year or so. Ages ages ago I emailed Eugene for
explicit permision to do this but he didn't seem to like the idea.

Currently the RPMS I'm writing don't integrate with the JPackage system
at all, but I'm fine with that for now.

If you want more information about it, or an interest in looking at my
.spec files ( should work for all RPM based systems ) - I use it on
Fedora Code 2, and 3.

It's nice being able to type:

  1. yum install idea-jre idea-complete


then find IntelliJ IDEA listed in the Development menus in GNOME/KDE,
all spanky and nice...

Mark



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Maxim Shafirov wrote:

So what do you think would be a proper way to distribute IDEA for
various Linux platforms (Red-hat, Gentoo, Fedora Core, etc.)?


Tarball - it's the most generic, I think. I guess most distros have some
form of RPM support, but with a relatively simple installation like IDEA
I personally think there is little point.

CU,
Edwin

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Edwin van Ouwerkerk Moria wrote:

Tarball - it's the most generic, I think. I guess most distros have some
form of RPM support, but with a relatively simple installation like IDEA
I personally think there is little point.


True, but I also find RPM/yum to be great for automated installs accross
multiple machines. On all the boxes I run IDEA from, they all come from
the one yum repository which I rebuild whenever a new EAP is released,
then its just a matter of "yum update" on each machine when I get around
to it ( or as part of its automated nightly processes ).

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On 2005-01-09 19:47, Maxim Shafirov wrote:

So what do you think would be a proper way to distribute IDEA for
various Linux platforms (Red-hat, Gentoo, Fedora Core, etc.)?



.tgz package / tar.gz /tar.bz ...

bittorent link or gentoo ebuild submited to gentoo rsync system would rock ! :)

Karol

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Mark Derricutt wrote:

multiple machines. On all the boxes I run IDEA from, they all come from
the one yum repository which I rebuild whenever a new EAP is released,


Ah, I see - RPMs make sense in that scenario. What is 'yum', though? :)

CU,
Edwin

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In article <crtd22$j9u$1@is.intellij.net>,
Edwin van Ouwerkerk Moria <edwin@cadwal.org> wrote:

Mark Derricutt wrote:

multiple machines. On all the boxes I run IDEA from, they all come from
the one yum repository which I rebuild whenever a new EAP is released,


Ah, I see - RPMs make sense in that scenario. What is 'yum', though? :)


Something you say after you eat donuts.

R

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Edwin van Ouwerkerk Moria wrote:

>> Tarball - it's the most generic, I think. I guess most distros have
>> some form of RPM support, but with a relatively simple installation
>> like IDEA I personally think there is little point.
>>

True, but I also find RPM/yum to be great for automated installs
accross multiple machines. On all the boxes I run IDEA from, they all
come from the one yum repository which I rebuild whenever a new EAP is
released, then its just a matter of "yum update" on each machine when
I get around to it ( or as part of its automated nightly processes ).


Aren't RPMs only work for RedHat (and clones) installations?

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AFAIK most common linuses (suse, debian, etc.) offer rpm support.

Maxim Shafirov wrote:
>> Edwin van Ouwerkerk Moria wrote:
>>
>>> Tarball - it's the most generic, I think. I guess most distros have
>>> some form of RPM support, but with a relatively simple installation
>>> like IDEA I personally think there is little point.
>>>
>> True, but I also find RPM/yum to be great for automated installs
>> accross multiple machines. On all the boxes I run IDEA from, they all
>> come from the one yum repository which I rebuild whenever a new EAP is
>> released, then its just a matter of "yum update" on each machine when
>> I get around to it ( or as part of its automated nightly processes ).
>>


Aren't RPMs only work for RedHat (and clones) installations?


--
Martin Fuhrer
Fuhrer Engineering AG
http://www.fuhrer.com

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What about debian/knoppix?

Tom

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If it should work easy with debian we need .deb-files and an apt-repository.

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a tarball is sufficient. If you're running linux, then chances are you know what to do with it.

I don't think there's much benefit to providing rpm/deb files, because IDEA is standalone and doesn't require a bunch of scripts to run pre/post install, nor does it have any deps really.

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In article <27601136.1105373026868.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net>,
Hani Suleiman <hani@formicary.net> wrote:

a tarball is sufficient. If you're running linux, then chances are you know
what to do with it.

I don't think there's much benefit to providing rpm/deb files, because IDEA
is standalone and doesn't require a bunch of scripts to run pre/post install,
nor does it have any deps really.


+1 most linux installs generally just have a tarball and nothing more.
Most linux folks also like to control where things end up and where
they're setup.

R

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Just provide a .tar.bz2 file (smaller than .tar.gz, and all modern linux distributions incude bzip2 anyway) we can just uncompress and run. If you're a java developer, working on linux, and don't know how to uncompress a file, something is very wrong.

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Edwin van Ouwerkerk Moria wrote:

Ah, I see - RPMs make sense in that scenario. What is 'yum', though? :)


If you've ever used a debian machine, YUM is kinda like apt-get.
automates the process of downloading rpms and the rpms of dependancies.

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Thomas Singer (MoTJ) wrote:

What about debian/knoppix?


What I currently have in a .spec file to build RPMs, one could either
use alien to convert these rpms to .deb files for debian/knoppix, or
just write a specific spec file for .debs ( I've not made .deb's so not
sure of the process ).

But the building of rpms and debs could easily be automated.

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Id stick with .tar.gz
Not all Unix distros have BZ installed. I just checked here at work ( we run various versions of Solaris and Linux). The size diff isnt that significant (to me at least)

Nick


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Gentoo users would be happy to have ebuild :)

--
Gentoo User

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I think that if you're going to get rid of installers, you absolutely need
RPM's and DEBs. This covers Red Hat, Suse, Debian, Ubuntu.

There's no package format for Gentoo Linux; everything is in the form of
automated build scripts which download (preferably in tar.gz or RPM form),
unpack, and install the application. You don't release these, they're kept
on a Gentoo server, and users download updates of these "ebuilds." When you
release a new IDEA version, you simply upload a new build script with an
updated download URL to the Gentoo ebuilds server (you upload via Bugzilla),
and users will see the available update when they update their ebuilds list
(which Gentoo users do regularly).

I have an IDEA JRE and IDEA EAP ebuild ready, but the IDEA download system
(with redirect.jsp and all that) does not fit well with the ebuild download
system, so they don't work unless the user manually downloads the targz files
and places them in /usr/portage/distfiles.

-Keith

Once upon the time we've discovered that there's no need for installer
under MacOS X since it is much easier to install an application by
copying from the mountable disk image.

It seems having Windows-like (wizard) installer is mauvais ton under
Linuses as well.

So what do you think would be a proper way to distribute IDEA for
various Linux platforms (Red-hat, Gentoo, Fedora Core, etc.)?



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Martin Fuhrer wrote:

AFAIK most common linuses (suse, debian, etc.) offer rpm support.


While Debian can convert RPMs to DEBs using the "alien" tool, it would
be far better to produce a DEB from the original installation materials
that is correctly structured for a Debian system.

There are, however, other problems with producing a package for a Debian
system due to its strict policy of only keeping Free software in the
main repositories. JetBrains could provide the DEBs for download but
that method of obtaining DEBs is not viewed favourably by most users of
Debian since that leads to "dependency hell" like you have in other
distros that are generally based on RPMs.

But even a "foreign" DEB would be preferable to a tarball.

Ciao,
Gordon

--
Gordon Tyler (Software Developer)
Quest Software <http://www.quest.com/>
260 King Street East, Toronto, Ontario M5A 4L5, Canada
Voice: (416) 933-5046 | Fax: (416) 933-5001

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Eh? Why? IDEA is standalone and has no deps, there's nothing to be gained by having a zillion package formats for it. What does a package of IDEA provide that a tarball does not (beyond a different, and maybe slightly shorter command to install).

Is anyone right how hurting due to IDEA's unlinuxy approach of using an installer?

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My vote is for the tarball as well.

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It works well for me.

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Hani Suleiman wrote:

Is anyone right how hurting due to IDEA's unlinuxy approach of using
an installer?


I only thing that comes to mind is all the people who were complaining
of loosing settings whenever they upgrade to a new release/eap,
different directories for the application etc. etc. etc.

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Gordon Tyler wrote:

There are, however, other problems with producing a package for a Debian
system due to its strict policy of only keeping Free software in the
main repositories. JetBrains could provide the DEBs for download but


Screw the "main repositories", if one was to do it, have jetbrains
provide their own repository, much like I'm providing to myself an
apt/yum repository for the RPMs I'm building.

Thou I do aggree with not using alien.

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Eh? Why? IDEA is standalone and has no deps, there's nothing to be
gained by having a zillion package formats for it. What does a package
of IDEA provide that a tarball does not (beyond a different, and maybe
slightly shorter command to install).

Is anyone right how hurting due to IDEA's unlinuxy approach of using
an installer?


I think:

1. I think most computer users don't know what an archive or zip file is,
but they know that you have to install programs. If you use Windows, you
know that you download and run a .exe that has a lot of progress bars and
dialogs in it. If you use OSX, you know that you download a disk image and
copy it to Applications. If you use Red Hat Linux, you know that you double-click
the .RPM file to install the program, or double-click it in the package manager.
IDEA shouldn't go against the grain in this respect; it should be as easy
to install for as many users, as is possible.

If you want to say, "any developer using IDEA should know what a tar file
is," I think you should consider, some people just use IDEA for GUI design,
or just for HTML/CSS editing (especially probably with the new Irida features),
or just for XML editing. Maybe most Java developers know what an archive
is, but maybe these people don't.

2. IDEA should do things upon install, like add a menu item for IDEA to
the GNOME/KDE applications menu, and create file associations with .ipr and
maybe .java and other things. (My Gentoo e-build adds the item to the Applications
menu, but it doesn't create the file associations. It shouldn't be too hard,
though.)

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I completely agree with this. Though I do use the tar.gz files most of the time I think I would use RPMS if they where available. Menu entries etc are needed. And as Keith says, more and more people use linux, without wanting to bother about tar.gz. If they use redhat/fedora, they want to install RPMS.



Mark: Is your yum repo public? I'm interested in using it.

Alexander

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I think it would be nice to have some rpms that I can click on an they just install but no matter what you do someone will always want something else. Create a rpm and someone will want deb packages. Create a yum repository and someone will want an apt repository. If you create menu items that follow the freedesktop.org standard someone will want them to install in another directory. I think the best solution for JetBrains would be just to distribute a tarball. I mean what is the difference really?

yum update (Does not work in all cases*)
tar zxvf ideaxxxx.tar.gz (works in almost all cases)

*There was a new version of yum that came with FC3 that is not compatible with older yum repositories. I'm sure someone will want a repository for the older version of yum.

I would like to end in saying, if JetBrains is willing to maintain these packages then I am all for it. Otherwise, a tarball would suffice. :)

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Alexander wrote:

Mark: Is your yum repo public? I'm interested in using it.


It is, but if too many people start using it my admin gets all bandwidth
nazi on my arse ;p

I sooo wish I could rate-limit outband apache2 traffic.

I mentioned it on my blog awhile ago at
http://www.talios.com/read/898038.htm

Theres a few changes I should really make now that IDEA has changed some
of its practises ( location of plugins etc. etc. ) but the RPMs work
fine for me.

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