why IDEA is still better then Eclipse

to say something good about IDEA after some time ;)

I tried Eclipse these days - although my time is limited
and I have bugs to fix.
First I was very impressed with 3.0, project setup was
releatively easy, now that I already know how to use
"link to filesystem" for adding source folders.
It has copied most features from IDEA, free profiler plugin
available etc.
I was VERY impressed by the startup performance of
Eclipse itself (with big projects open), and also when
launchig apps from Eclipse.
On the other hand, sometimes it was noticably slow to
just navigate to another source file.

Btw., Eclipse has a cyclic buffer for the console output ;)

Other coolnesses in Eclipse:
- if you navigate to a .class you can really easily attach the sources for it. And also E. makes it very clear if the source for a java class is available at multiple locations (jar, folders etc)
- Code templates have access to selection (multi line only)



But here is the downside, that almost drove me mad after
a few hours:
1. Congratulations to the IDEA screen estate
handling!!! With E. I could not get it right to have
sufficient space for the code editor window, while also
the outline is visible.

2. VERY GOOD keyboard support in IDEA,
e.g. for quick fixes that can be accepted by alt enter.
in E. you have to target the gutter icon and doubleclick...

it sounds not that spectacular, but the usabilty of
IDEA is a lot better because of these two items.

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Michael Damberger wrote:

1. Congratulations to the IDEA screen estate
handling!!! With E. I could not get it right to have
sufficient space for the code editor window, while also
the outline is visible.


You can drag the code outline where you want it to be.

2. VERY GOOD keyboard support in IDEA,
e.g. for quick fixes that can be accepted by alt enter.
in E. you have to target the gutter icon and doubleclick...


Ctrl + 1 is the the according shortcut in Eclipse.

The problem for "us (IDEA users)" is, that we are used to
keyboard shortcuts in IDEA. Almost all the shortcuts are
also present in Eclipse, but they are diffent.

But I think, IDEA is still a bit ahead of Eclipse in terms of
usability. e.g. Web development is much harder in Eclipse.
There are plugins out there to make this easier, but you have
to invest time to find the right plugin for you.
With IDEA, there is no need for such a plugin.

With IDEA, it is also much easier to find the right plugin for
you thanks to the great plugin manager. In Eclipse you have to
search and install every plugin by hand.

Greetings

Marc Salm


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Funny, last few months I spent my spare time playing with
Eclipse - actually did my everyday development there.
The impressions are VERY similar to yours:
- it's very nice and practically all Java dev. features
are there
- what's not there, you can find plugins that add it for
you (code assist, etc.)
- several things are superior to IDEA, for example:
- marking packages with errors (or file tabs)
- filtering (in views, searches, everywhere)
- still, there are areas where IDEA is better:
- keyboard work style support (no mouse)
- JSP (and J2EE in general) is better in IDEA (even very nice
plugin MyEclipse doesn't get close to IDEA)

However, some of the differences can be easily erased:
- Eclipse filtering can be fixed in IDEA by extending the scope
concept to be named persistent and little more flexible
- IDEA keyboard support can be introduced to Eclipse (perhaps just
better default set of shortcuts - to many important actions are
not assigned to anything)
- web dev support in Eclipse will eventually get strong with the
new webtools project (IBM contributing)
- IDEA can again return to UI LaF and update the look to current
trends (the IDEA UI now seems little "retro", even with Windoze L&F)
-? not sure about error marking

Neither of the list can be probably exhaustive. This is just
quick addition from top of my hat.

r.

P.S. Returned to IDEA after all. But will not promise staying here
forever - need JB to stay focused and highly competitive...

Michael Damberger wrote:

to say something good about IDEA after some time ;)

I tried Eclipse these days - although my time is limited
and I have bugs to fix.
First I was very impressed with 3.0, project setup was
releatively easy, now that I already know how to use
"link to filesystem" for adding source folders.
It has copied most features from IDEA, free profiler plugin
available etc.
I was VERY impressed by the startup performance of
Eclipse itself (with big projects open), and also when
launchig apps from Eclipse.
On the other hand, sometimes it was noticably slow to
just navigate to another source file.

Btw., Eclipse has a cyclic buffer for the console output ;)

Other coolnesses in Eclipse:
- if you navigate to a .class you can really easily attach the sources for it. And also E. makes it very clear if the source for a java class is available at multiple locations (jar, folders etc)
- Code templates have access to selection (multi line only)



But here is the downside, that almost drove me mad after
a few hours:
1. Congratulations to the IDEA screen estate
handling!!! With E. I could not get it right to have
sufficient space for the code editor window, while also
the outline is visible.

2. VERY GOOD keyboard support in IDEA,
e.g. for quick fixes that can be accepted by alt enter.
in E. you have to target the gutter icon and doubleclick...

it sounds not that spectacular, but the usabilty of
IDEA is a lot better because of these two items.

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What do you think about IDEA using the Alloy L&F?

Eugene


"Richard Nemec" <rndzank@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:cgktog$a14$1@is.intellij.net...

Funny, last few months I spent my spare time playing with
Eclipse - actually did my everyday development there.
The impressions are VERY similar to yours:
- it's very nice and practically all Java dev. features
are there
- what's not there, you can find plugins that add it for
you (code assist, etc.)
- several things are superior to IDEA, for example:
- marking packages with errors (or file tabs)
- filtering (in views, searches, everywhere)
- still, there are areas where IDEA is better:
- keyboard work style support (no mouse)
- JSP (and J2EE in general) is better in IDEA (even very nice
plugin MyEclipse doesn't get close to IDEA)

>

However, some of the differences can be easily erased:
- Eclipse filtering can be fixed in IDEA by extending the scope
concept to be named persistent and little more flexible
- IDEA keyboard support can be introduced to Eclipse (perhaps just
better default set of shortcuts - to many important actions are
not assigned to anything)
- web dev support in Eclipse will eventually get strong with the
new webtools project (IBM contributing)
- IDEA can again return to UI LaF and update the look to current
trends (the IDEA UI now seems little "retro", even with Windoze L&F)
-? not sure about error marking

>

Neither of the list can be probably exhaustive. This is just
quick addition from top of my hat.

>

r.

>

P.S. Returned to IDEA after all. But will not promise staying here
forever - need JB to stay focused and highly competitive...

>

Michael Damberger wrote:

to say something good about IDEA after some time ;)

>

I tried Eclipse these days - although my time is limited
and I have bugs to fix.
First I was very impressed with 3.0, project setup was
releatively easy, now that I already know how to use
"link to filesystem" for adding source folders.
It has copied most features from IDEA, free profiler plugin
available etc.
I was VERY impressed by the startup performance of
Eclipse itself (with big projects open), and also when
launchig apps from Eclipse.
On the other hand, sometimes it was noticably slow to
just navigate to another source file.

>

Btw., Eclipse has a cyclic buffer for the console output ;)

>

Other coolnesses in Eclipse:
- if you navigate to a .class you can really easily attach the sources

for it. And also E. makes it very clear if the source for a java class is
available at multiple locations (jar, folders etc)

- Code templates have access to selection (multi line only)

>
>
>

But here is the downside, that almost drove me mad after
a few hours:
1. Congratulations to the IDEA screen estate
handling!!! With E. I could not get it right to have
sufficient space for the code editor window, while also
the outline is visible.

>

2. VERY GOOD keyboard support in IDEA,
e.g. for quick fixes that can be accepted by alt enter.
in E. you have to target the gutter icon and doubleclick...

>

it sounds not that spectacular, but the usabilty of
IDEA is a lot better because of these two items.

>



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I like the Alloy L&F. The tabs are a bit too small for my taste. They need some top and bottom padding. I like the idea of having the custom color settings that the Alloy demo shows.

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How do I configure that one? I see only Windows, Metal, IDEA and Motif offered.

Eugene Belyaev (JetBrains) wrote:

What do you think about IDEA using the Alloy L&F?

Eugene

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OK, I installed Alloy trial, and it definitely adds some freshness.
However, doesn't solve my reason switching to Windows LaF:
- smaller scrollbars (based on Win settings)
- overall little more compact layout
And, even if that were solved I still for some reason like
Eclipse UI little more. Cannot explain - old-looking IDEA toolbars?
or flexibility of placing tool windows in Eclipse? The color schema?

r.

Richard Nemec wrote:

How do I configure that one? I see only Windows, Metal, IDEA and Motif
offered.

Eugene Belyaev (JetBrains) wrote:

>> What do you think about IDEA using the Alloy L&F?
>>
>> Eugene

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"Richard Nemec" <rndzank@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:cgmbjd$rni$1@is.intellij.net...

OK, I installed Alloy trial, and it definitely adds some freshness.
However, doesn't solve my reason switching to Windows LaF:
- smaller scrollbars (based on Win settings)
- overall little more compact layout
And, even if that were solved I still for some reason like
Eclipse UI little more. Cannot explain - old-looking IDEA toolbars?
or flexibility of placing tool windows in Eclipse? The color schema?


How did you install Alloy? I followed their FAQ and it doesn't show up in
IDEA's list of L&Fs.

--
Jordan Zimmerman
http://www.jordanzimmerman.com


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1) Download Alloy
2) Modify your swing.properties as in the instructions
3) Modify your idea startup script to include alloy.jar and the license jar (as in the instructions) in the classpath
4) ...
5) Enjoy!

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thanks for the tipps ;)

do you know an Eclipse shortcut for copy / cut the
whole line without first selecting it?

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Jordan Zimmerman wrote:

How did you install Alloy? I followed their FAQ and it doesn't show up in
IDEA's list of L&Fs.


- Downloaded alloy
- copied alloy.jar to jre/lib/ext
- created alloyProperies.jar in jre/lib/ext with alloy.properties (license)
and manifest (jar without manifest file is not enough i think)
- created swing.properties under jre/lib (copy from their doc but
make sure you have edited long lines to stay on one line)
- restart IDEA and choose Alloy.

r.

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Michael Damberger wrote:

thanks for the tipps ;)

>

do you know an Eclipse shortcut for copy / cut the
whole line without first selecting it?


Nope. I don't use Eclipse very often. IDEA is still my favorite,
but Eclipse is winning land.

For looking up shortcuts in Eclipse, I use the pdf file from:
http://eclipse-tools.sourceforge.net/shortcuts.html

Looks very similar to the IDEA Keymap PDF ;) Who copied whom?

Greetings

Marc Salm


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There is an action to cut line but by default not assigned.
If you open preferences/workbench/keys/textEditor you can
assign "Cut Line" to anything you like.

Michael Damberger wrote:

thanks for the tipps ;)

do you know an Eclipse shortcut for copy / cut the
whole line without first selecting it?

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Project handling anyone -- I tried to get the source tree I work with into
eclipse -- it seemed I either needed to modify the the tree or let eclipse
copy the (very large) source tree.
IDEA wins for by conforming to what you want to do vs you conform to doing
things the eclipse way.

"Michael Damberger" <michael.damberger@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:27089836.1093528025901.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...

to say something good about IDEA after some time ;)

>

I tried Eclipse these days - although my time is limited
and I have bugs to fix.
First I was very impressed with 3.0, project setup was
releatively easy, now that I already know how to use
"link to filesystem" for adding source folders.
It has copied most features from IDEA, free profiler plugin
available etc.
I was VERY impressed by the startup performance of
Eclipse itself (with big projects open), and also when
launchig apps from Eclipse.
On the other hand, sometimes it was noticably slow to
just navigate to another source file.

>

Btw., Eclipse has a cyclic buffer for the console output ;)

>

Other coolnesses in Eclipse:
- if you navigate to a .class you can really easily attach the sources for

it. And also E. makes it very clear if the source for a java class is
available at multiple locations (jar, folders etc)

- Code templates have access to selection (multi line only)

>
>
>

But here is the downside, that almost drove me mad after
a few hours:
1. Congratulations to the IDEA screen estate
handling!!! With E. I could not get it right to have
sufficient space for the code editor window, while also
the outline is visible.

>

2. VERY GOOD keyboard support in IDEA,
e.g. for quick fixes that can be accepted by alt enter.
in E. you have to target the gutter icon and doubleclick...

>

it sounds not that spectacular, but the usabilty of
IDEA is a lot better because of these two items.

>


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Project Properties -> Java -> BuildPath-> Add Folder
-> Create New Folder -> Advanced : Link To Folder in the
file system ;) don't forget to enter "alias" name.

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??? I had an opposite experience...

It took me some time to convince JB to offer same flexibility Eclipse
offers (e.g. having as source just few packages from large tree).
Just remember - what IDEA calls modules, Eclipse calls projects.

Also, the linked resources are quite powerful ("link to filesystem")
and you might consider it for your source configuration.
No copying ever needed.

Well, I needed to do some copying for web apps since MyEclipse doesn't
support flexible source configs.

And one more thing - just to ease the critical tone towards IDEA:
classes compiled by Eclipse are not binary compatible with javac-compiled
ones. If you have a remote server and try to serialize and pass locally built
classes (same as on server) you'll get into trouble. And you need those
Eclipse built classes since the compilation is the way Eclipse does all
the parsing etc. Without compiling you don't get code assist or anything.
And this has lots of other implications (like - cannot introduce variable
until the code is compilable and compiled).

talking too much

r.

charles wrote:

Project handling anyone -- I tried to get the source tree I work with into
eclipse -- it seemed I either needed to modify the the tree or let eclipse
copy the (very large) source tree.
IDEA wins for by conforming to what you want to do vs you conform to doing
things the eclipse way.

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Hello Eugene,

EB> What do you think about IDEA using the Alloy L&F?
EB>
EB> Eugene
EB>

I think you should have made it an option a couple of years ago, when it was first mentioned on the newsgroups (I remember you liked it back then).

You obviously have a license (since you use(d) it in Fabrique), why not put it IDEA, even if as an unsupported feature (like the long debated font size for non-IDEA LnFs)? I'm sure there are folks around here who would be glad to have that LnF option in IDEA, rather than having to get trial licenses every 30 days or so. :)

Regards,
Andrei

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now that is really quite a BIG downside of Eclipe.
Also it seems like "smart code complete" misses in E.
I mean ctrl-shift-space that e.g. looks for fitting local
vars to add as params for a method call.
(Fitting, not just any variable...)


Nice weekend!
M.

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Michael Damberger wrote:

Project Properties -> Java -> BuildPath-> Add Folder
-> Create New Folder -> Advanced : Link To Folder in the
file system ;) don't forget to enter "alias" name.

Thanks, that is good to know since I am going to be forced to use
eclipse eventually....

Nevertheless, I believe my original observation -- about Idea conforming
to you and you conforming to Eclipse still stands. :)

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