Is YouTrack a permanent replacement for JIRA? (hope not)

Guys, I understand the decision might have been made long ago already, and how cool eating one's own dog food can be, but could you send a clear message on the subj?

Thanks,
Andrew

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Hello Andrew,

Guys, I understand the decision might have been made long ago already,
and how cool eating one's own dog food can be, but could you send a
clear message on the subj?


A clear message will be sent when the migration process is completed, but
we don't currently see a reason why we would want to go back to JIRA. If
you don't like YouTrack for some reason, the YouTrack development team would
love to hear your feedback.

--
Dmitry Jemerov
Development Lead
JetBrains, Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com/
"Develop with Pleasure!"


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why didn't you name it "intellitrack"?

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HamsterofDeath wrote:

why didn't you name it "intellitrack"?


I don't think they want to associate it so tightly with IntelliJ because that implies it's dependent on it some way or that it's not a full-fledged product that stands on its own. For same reason, TeamCity was a better name than IntelliCity or IntelliTeam or IntelliBuild or TeamJ. Also, there already is IntelliMouse from Microsoft, and they talk alot about tracking mouse movement. The only theme I see is the You in YouTrack is like the Team in TeamCity.  They could have called it TeamTrack, but then you have the same problem of too similar names.  One danger with their product names is they are borderline generic; I prefer unique names like IntelliJ, and Atlassian's Jira, Confluence, Fisheye, and Crucible; The name doesn't have to use words that directly relate to the product, esp. the most pedestrian words e.g. bug, issue, report, track, etc.

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What noone seems to have thought about is that there are lots of people working in large corporations, e.g. financial institutions. And these corporations are very slow to migrate to the new browser versions, because it is an organisation-wide process and requires a lot of testing and co-ordination.

I am working for an organisation that employs ca. 100000 people globally and has a standard Windows build that includes IE6. YouTrack gave IE6 an immediate "sod off", which means I cannot work with IDEA issues from work anymore. Nice.

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Hello Sergei,

What noone seems to have thought about is that there are lots of
people working in large corporations, e.g. financial institutions. And
these corporations are very slow to migrate to the new browser
versions, because it is an organisation-wide process and requires a
lot of testing and co-ordination.


Frankly speaking I don't buy these arguments at all. I understand that's
not your fault, but this doesn't make these organizational policies any less
brain-dead.

--
Dmitry Jemerov
Development Lead
JetBrains, Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com/
"Develop with Pleasure!"


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Hello Dmitry,

Frankly speaking I don't buy these arguments at all

You don't buy their arguments but they don't buy your product, it's a courageous choice

I'm working on a SaaS application (a code quality platform) on which we keep IE6 compatibility since 20% of our customers still use it.

Sylvain

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Hello Sylvain,

Frankly speaking I don't
> buy these arguments at all


You don't buy their arguments but they don't buy your product, it's a
courageous choice

I'm working on a SaaS application (a code quality platform) on which
we keep IE6 compatibility since 20% of our customers still use it.


The choice of having IE6 compatiblity in YouTrack is not mine to make. :)
But I don't see it as an important consideration for choosing YouTrack as
the issue tracker to use for the IDEA project. I don't think not being able
to access our issue tracker would affect the purchasing decisions of big
companies.

--
Dmitry Jemerov
Development Lead
JetBrains, Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com/
"Develop with Pleasure!"


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Frankly speaking I don't
> buy these arguments at all


You don't buy their arguments but they don't buy your product, it's a
courageous choice

I'm working on a SaaS application (a code quality platform) on which
we keep IE6 compatibility since 20% of our customers still use it.


The choice of having IE6 compatiblity in YouTrack is not mine to make. :)
But I don't see it as an important consideration for choosing YouTrack as
the issue tracker to use for the IDEA project. I don't think not being able
to access our issue tracker would affect the purchasing decisions of big
companies.


Well. Unless you are developing YouTrack for fun or for in-house use only, you must have a solid business plan for marketing it, when it is finally released. By limiting the set of supported browsers, you immediately cut off an impressive share of the potential user base (and, as I mentioned before, these are often big and wealthy organisations, the ones who can buy the entire JetBrains company and intellectual property 1000 times over). Not only you will have to convince the decision makers that your product is better than the rivals, you will have to justify your minimum requirements for the client environment, and also justify that by imposing these minimum requirements you can provide a more attractive product.

Just a quick poll in my network returned the following:

  • Barclays Capital - IE6
  • Royal Bank of Scotland - IE6
  • Deutsche Bank - IE6

Needless to say that IT departments and IT budgets in each of these banks are huge.

Personally, I agree that IE6 is crap, but the reality is that it is still being widely used. In my previous job we had to support users, who ran our application on all flavours of Windows, from Win95 to Vista, because gaining and retaining a client was far more important than the amount of effort needed to support them.

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i like the way jetbrains is doing it.
my thumb rule for such decisions is: "will we end up in fiddling and messing around? will we have to do annoying stuff because we are forced to if the decide to support this?"

if the answer is yes: don't do it.

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Following the same logic, may I suggest that e.g. support for MacOS is dropped in Maia, and valuable resources are diverted to improve other areas?

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Going off-topic, but this logic with mac os x is false. The difference is IE has 2 more recent major versions after IE 6, while mac os is basically the latest and greatest. So, while dropping IE6 is painful, it is not without sense.

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Hello Sergei,

Following the same logic, may I suggest that e.g. support for MacOS is
dropped in Maia, and valuable resources are diverted to improve other
areas?


Indeed, following the same logic, we do not support MacOS X 10.3 and earlier
versions. I don't remember any complaints about that.

--
Dmitry Jemerov
Development Lead
JetBrains, Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com/
"Develop with Pleasure!"


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Following the same logic, may I suggest that e.g. support for MacOS is
dropped in Maia, and valuable resources are diverted to improve other
areas?


Indeed, following the same logic, we do not support MacOS X 10.3 and earlier
versions. I don't remember any complaints about that.


I guess, you can only get away with that because MacOS is not that widely used in corporate java development environment. I guess that most of IDEA users who develop on MacOS, use it on their home PCs or laptops, or work in smallish companies, where administration of the PC estate is mostly done by the users themselves. An upgrade is not a problem in that case. For the same reason, I haven't seen for ages anyone who'd have been developing (not testing) under Win2k on their laptop or home PC. But I've learnt from my friend a couple of weeks ago that Citibank still uses Win2k as a base platform.

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Do you have the possibility to launch a portable Firefox? Then this should
solve your problems. Generally, who will use IDEA/its issue tracker?
Developers, not "normal end users". Are there still developers who don't
have at least one decent browser version on their machines? I can't imagine
this.

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On 2009-09-16 05:30:30 -0400, Dmitry Jemerov <yole@jetbrains.com> said:

Hello Sergei,

>> What noone seems to have thought about is that there are lots of
>> people working in large corporations, e.g. financial institutions. And
>> these corporations are very slow to migrate to the new browser
>> versions, because it is an organisation-wide process and requires a
>> lot of testing and co-ordination.


Frankly speaking I don't buy these arguments at all. I understand
that's not your fault, but this doesn't make these organizational
policies any less brain-dead.


Hum, NCI and NIH here in the states still use IE 6 and we're required
to support it.  Though I can use and install Firefox and Safir of
course.  So it's not so far fetched that companies require IE6 because
it just works with what they do.

R

(hey guys)

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Whenever a new release of IDEA comes out, I need to lodge a download request and get it approved by a senior manager (a few levels up the food pyramid), because all .exe downloads are automatically blocked by the corporate firewall. Whenever I download a .zip of an EAP build, it is scanned deep and wide by the very same firewall before it is released to me. And I can't just go an upgrade my 'managed' IE6 installation. Certainly, there are still workarounds for the current situation, e.g. sneak Firefox through the backdoor, but that is not the point. Of course, I shall explore these ways and get back to contributing to this amazing community.

The point is that I was really p*ssed off when I realised that I could not work with the new tracker from the office anymore. I dedicate my working time to report bugs and ideas here, with the aim to improve my and everyone else's experience with IDEA. I think that shutting a door in front of me and many others without a warning was a bit harsh and unnecessary.

But as another poster correctly noted, this discussion has swerved off-topic. I digress and my rant is over. Back to positive contributions.

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Sergei,

Are you able to install Chrome Frame where you're using IE6? YouTrack now supports IE6 through the plug-in. This is still a limited solution but it should help.

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No, the security policy prohibits installation of 3rd-party plugins.

What would be nice is at least a simplified view on the YouTrack for IE6 users (i.e. no dynamic content or scripting, even maybe no editing of issues, but saved searches and links between issues should work). Thing is, when I click on a link to a youtrack issue inside e.g. a forum message, the issue page on youtrack opens and the issue information is displayed. But shortly afterwards, the dynamic scripts kick in and redirect me to "browser not supported" page.

I wonder whether youtrack works well on mobile devices, some of which also run old Mobile IE or other embedded browsers with no advanced support for scripting.

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