992 - More Bugs than ever!

After letting us wait more than 3 weeks for a new EAP I expected major progress but it seams that we are stepping backwards with 992. It's almost impossible to use it since it throws exceptions each time it syncs the files again. I.e. I updated my project with an external CVS tool, till 992 no problem but now it threw an exception after returning to IDEA (described in Bug #23049). Guys, that shouldn't happen anymore since you already fixed that kinda problem in earlier builds.

32 comments

If you don't like it you can always go back to an earlier build.

It's posts like this that probably make the IntelliJ team think twice if it's really worth it to offer us the EAP!

I for one would like to make it clear that the above post does not in any way reflect my oppinion and I deeply regret to see such comments.

Oh, and about the "three week waiting period". It has been posted numerous times that this long delay was because of a serious CVS bug that the IntelliJ team was working on squashing before releasing a new build. I think that's admirable. Instead of caving in and giving us a totally useless build, they stood off the pressure and waited until they had a better one. It's not in their best interest to wait so long between builds and they know that. All it does is increase the number of duplicate (and more) bug reports that in turn increases the workload for them.

I'll end with a cliche... but as long as there are people that post these kinds of things, the cliche is valid:

It's EAP, accept it! Don't use it for production use if you're unwillling to accept its shortcomings!

0

Filling bug report is enough, complaining about EAP builds quality must be made only such way.

TIA,
Dmitry

0

Agreed. For me this was a step forward. CVS file view is usable again. I have paid for IDEA 3, the fact that I'm able to use IDEA 4 'for free' keeps me happy.

As a developer I create my share of bugs and I don't expect the EAP releases to be perfect. Use the version 3 if you want stability.

0

Listen Dude, I KNOW that it is an EAP and that there are bugs in there. I'm just a little frustrated that bugs that seemed to be solved occure again.

Besides how am I supposed to test the EAP if not using it on a project? How can you simulate an everydays behavior if you don't use it on a project?

So stop being aggressive towards people that just try to say their opinion.

0

As i can get it right. You can set filter to ignore this exception... It is
possible since 992.
Bugs are happen sometimes :)


"Steffen Krause" <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote in message
news:32467307.1070964326879.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost...

After letting us wait more than 3 weeks for a new EAP I expected major

progress but it seams that we are stepping backwards with 992. It's almost
impossible to use it since it throws exceptions each time it syncs the files
again. I.e. I updated my project with an external CVS tool, till 992 no
problem but now it threw an exception after returning to IDEA (described in
Bug #23049). Guys, that shouldn't happen anymore since you already fixed
that kinda problem in earlier builds.
>
>


0

"Guys, that shouldn't happen anymore since you already fixed that kinda problem in earlier builds." is not opinion it's a little aggressive as you say.
May it was redundant?

0

Don't wanna offend anybody but it just doesn't look great if I just hit Ctrl+S to save something and several exceptions occure, then clicking on a clean-all target of ant what is supposed to delete all classes and jars produced before and several other exceptions occure. I mean how can I test it any further?? It just seems to me that there are major bugs to be fixed concerning the ant integration!

0

Whatever!!! It just seems that the ant integration is not getting any better. In 977 it looked almost ok, sometimes there was a slight problem but it was ok, with 992 the whole ant problem starts all over again.

0

Listen Dude, I KNOW that it is an EAP and that there
are bugs in there. I'm just a little frustrated that
bugs that seemed to be solved occure again.


Those are called "regression bugs".

Besides how am I supposed to test the EAP if not
using it on a project? How can you simulate an
everydays behavior if you don't use it on a project?


That's exactly my point... you don't!!! If you're not willing to accept the occasional non-working period... then don't test the EAP at all! There are quite a lot of people willing to accept the bugs and test the product. The rest of you can go and use 3.0.5 (unless of course you're only using EAP to get a great IDE for free... that is, you haven't bought a licence).

So stop being aggressive towards people that just try
to say their opinion.


Stop voicing your oppinion... its stupid!

0

QUOTE
That's exactly my point... you don't!!! If you're not willing to accept the occasional non-working period... then don't test the EAP at all!
QUOTE

I AM willing to accept "occasional non-working" periods but again, fact is, that 992 throws an exception on basically every action I do with Ant and further more throws exceptions on basic actions like ctrl+S. That is a step backwards!!


QUOTE
There are quite a lot of people willing to accept the bugs and test the product. The rest of you can go and use 3.0.5 (unless of course you're only using EAP to get a great IDE for free... that is, you haven't bought a licence).
QUOTE

No need to become rude!! First of all, the company I work for bought quite many IDEA licenses so stop accusing me of trying to use it for free. And second, I test the EAP the way I want to and I also give my opinion to the current builds if I want to, OK? And so far, I found more exceptions occurring in 992 than in any of the previous 3 builds!!!

0

>>So stop being aggressive towards people that just try
>>to say their opinion.


Stop voicing your oppinion... its stupid!


Please, be friendly to each other.

I think, sometimes it should be possible to say, that a newer build is
worse than a previous one (as you might know from my own postings).
Please also understand, that sometimes people are frustrated that the
EAP time is running out but some (major) bugs avoid the daily use.

Finally, I think, people would accept more bugs if EAP version would be
released more often. Having 3 weeks for the next publicly available
build pushes the expectation level higher than with a 3 day EAP release
period. So, please release as soon as possible. I may understand that
you (IntelliJ) want to surprise us with a new and cool build, but with
less often released builds it's getting harder to stear the EAP ship.

Tom

0

Agree, and also let's don't hurry up JetBrains on the verge of release. They
humans too, and they can mistake somewhere and sometimes, especially if we
will call for every troublesome exception.
Thanks! :)
PS. I see that 992 is more stable that 977 :)

"Thomas Singer" <thomas.singer@smartcvs.com> wrote in message
news:br4jd8$rqj$1@is.intellij.net...

>>So stop being aggressive towards people that just try
>>to say their opinion.
>

Stop voicing your oppinion... its stupid!

>

Please, be friendly to each other.

>

I think, sometimes it should be possible to say, that a newer build is
worse than a previous one (as you might know from my own postings).
Please also understand, that sometimes people are frustrated that the
EAP time is running out but some (major) bugs avoid the daily use.

>

Finally, I think, people would accept more bugs if EAP version would be
released more often. Having 3 weeks for the next publicly available
build pushes the expectation level higher than with a 3 day EAP release
period. So, please release as soon as possible. I may understand that
you (IntelliJ) want to surprise us with a new and cool build, but with
less often released builds it's getting harder to stear the EAP ship.

>

Tom

>


0

Steffen Krause wrote:

Whatever!!! It just seems that the ant integration is not getting any better. In 977 it looked almost ok, sometimes there was a slight problem but it was ok, with 992 the whole ant problem starts all over again.

What kind of ant problems do you experience? Please be more concrete.

Thanks,

IK

--
Igor Kuralenok
IntelliJ Labs / JetBrains Inc.
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

0

maybe you should try rebuilding your projects and totally clear your config and cache, because i'm not having any of those problems.

0

Thomas Singer wrote:

>>> So stop being aggressive towards people that just try
>>> to say their opinion.
>>
>> Stop voicing your oppinion... its stupid!
>
>

Please, be friendly to each other.
..
Please also understand, that sometimes people are frustrated that ..
Finally, I think, people would accept more bugs if EAP version would be
released more often.



-


(Comment to the general mood in this thread).
-



I know I'm repeating myself, again and again, but I'm sure a
Weekly Progress Report

would prevent this kind of fit, and netiquette bruise.

Alain


PS:
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.

0

Well said. I wonder why they ditched it... :)

Andrei

I know I'm repeating myself, again and again, but I'm sure a
Weekly Progress Report

>

would prevent this kind of fit, and netiquette bruise.

>

Alain

>
>

PS:
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.

>


0

Personally I'm dissapointed that we waited this long for 992, went on a
hunger strike, and then we get a build with some serious potential, and
web apps just don't work at all and jsp has gone backwards. So it's a
build I spent a good 5 hours testing last night and filing bugs, and now I
have to park it, and not use it at all, and file further bug reports,
because I can't throw some production stuff at it. It's not a frustration
that 'the build sucks', or that 'Is this what we waited for', it's a
frustration that I gave up some good Kripy Cream donuts for THIS :)

R

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:47:32 +0100, Thomas Singer wrote:

>>>So stop being aggressive towards people that just try to say their
>>>opinion.
>>
>> Stop voicing your oppinion... its stupid!


Please, be friendly to each other.

I think, sometimes it should be possible to say, that a newer build is
worse than a previous one (as you might know from my own postings). Please
also understand, that sometimes people are frustrated that the EAP time is
running out but some (major) bugs avoid the daily use.

Finally, I think, people would accept more bugs if EAP version would be
released more often. Having 3 weeks for the next publicly available build
pushes the expectation level higher than with a 3 day EAP release period.
So, please release as soon as possible. I may understand that you
(IntelliJ) want to surprise us with a new and cool build, but with less
often released builds it's getting harder to stear the EAP ship.

Tom


0

I know I'm repeating myself, again and again, but I'm sure a
Weekly Progress Report

>

would prevent this kind of fit, and netiquette bruise.


Yes, some thing like "This week we introduced tons of new exceptions into
the code so don't worry....". :)
What did you mean?

--
Valentin Kipiatkov
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"


"Alain Ravet" <alain.ravet.list@wanadoo.be> wrote in message
news:br4mfl$4t3$3@is.intellij.net...

Thomas Singer wrote:

>

>>> So stop being aggressive towards people that just try
>>> to say their opinion.
>>
>> Stop voicing your oppinion... its stupid!
>
>

Please, be friendly to each other.
..
Please also understand, that sometimes people are frustrated that ..
Finally, I think, people would accept more bugs if EAP version would be
released more often.

>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
(Comment to the general mood in this thread).
------------------------------------------------------------

>

I know I'm repeating myself, again and again, but I'm sure a
Weekly Progress Report

>

would prevent this kind of fit, and netiquette bruise.

>

Alain

>
>

PS:
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.
Weekly Progress Report.

>


0

I've been using ant in Idea to build my projects since I bought 3.0.4 back in spring, and have been using it on every EAP there after and except for the initial problem 3.0 had with an exception being thrown every time I tried to build with ant on OS X (which was fixed back in March) I have not seen any problem with it. What problems are you seeing?

0

Valentin Kipiatkov (JetBrains) wrote:

>>I know I'm repeating myself, again and again, but I'm sure a
>> Weekly Progress Report
>>would prevent this kind of fit, and netiquette bruise.
>>
>>
>Yes, some thing like "This week we introduced tons of new exceptions into
>the code so don't worry....". :)
>
>What did you mean?

>



Do you hear people asking or complaining about the lack of AspectJ
improvement?

The answer is : "No".
The reason is : you told us what to expect, why, and when.

Apply this to "Ant", "WebApp", "JSP", etc...,

We're trying to build or consolidate a community, but you ignore the
signals, and leave us hanging, not knowing what to expect from the
future, nor why, nor when.

Give us
- a roadmap (even a rough one)
- weekly progress report (even a short one)

, and you'll see the complain river dry out.


Alain

0

Kind of OT, but exactly which directories do you delete?

It looks to me like the contents of system/caches, system/compiler, and system/jars are OK to delete but what about the stuff in system/stat or system/vcs?

Thanks,
Mark

0

I delete everything except my license file.

0

Do you delete your config files too ?!

0

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:28:29 +0000, Steffen Krause wrote:

I AM willing to accept "occasional non-working" periods but again, fact
is, that 992 throws an exception on basically every action I do with Ant
and further more throws exceptions on basic actions like ctrl+S. That is a
step backwards!!


For YOU maybe. Doesn't do that for me, and from the silence from alot of
other people in this area, I guess for them as well.

Maybe there's something peculiar about your setup thats causes esoteric
problems,

0

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:37:21 -0500, Robert S. Sfeir wrote:

frustration that I gave up some good Kripy Cream donuts for THIS :)


I -knew- I didn't have those donuts - you're just trying to frame me! :)

0

For YOU maybe. Doesn't do that for me, and from the silence from alot of other people in this area, I guess for them as well.

Mmmm ... just looking at ths stuff that's been filed over the past day or so, I think quite a few people are having problems. I don't think it's as much the bugs, as the way certain things have been (or haven't been implemented).

For me, this is the buggiest EAP I've seen in a long time, but as many have said, the solution is drop back a few builds and hope they clear it up the next time round.

0

personally i never experienced any bugs with ant
nevertheless, i think you should be more patient as a member og an eap-program, as a developer (i assume) it should be a familiarity that bugs re-arise especially in a project-end-phase ;)

greetz from karlsruhe, too :)

0

Well, I think some measure of expectations would be nice. For example, nobody expected the very early EAP's to work that well, they were all about trying out new ideas, adding stuff that will later be removed, getting feedback etc.

A few weeks back (sometime in early October I believe) someone from jetbrains said that 4.0 would be out in late November (I believe they said in 8 weeks). We're now well into December and new features are going in (well, functionality that was previously present is being brought back - web+ejb stuff), and the EAP's are still very buggy for a not-insignificant number of people. So I think this is why some of us are quite seriously concerned about the final quality of 4.0.

No performance tuning seems to have taken place yet, for example. For those of you who run the EAP's daily, try out 3.0.5 sometime and you'll be amazed at how much faster it is. So now we have a round of performance tuning, bug fixes, AND incomplete features that need to be ironed out before 4.0 release. That to me sounds like the work of a few months, not weeks.

Of course, I'm not saying you should rush it just to get something out. That would probably be the worst solution. What I AM saying is that to me at least, this seems to vindicate somewhat the concern that some of us had early on, that focussing on a bunch of new features that a (vocal) minority needed would detract from IDEA's core strengths.

While I could be wrong (and desperately hope I am), my experience with the latest EAP's has made me feel that those core strengths are being eroded somewhat. Builds happen far more rarely than in the previous eap cycle, progress seems to happen in one direction at a time (ui designer, cvs, aspects) rather than across the board, and users are often left with near non-functional builds for weeks. It all still feels like it's in heavy dev mode rather than stabilisation mode.

0

This is why when we were talking about that (in)famous projection of
November, I said there would be no way this puppy would be out before
February. While I'm not complaining about the delay, I wonder how that
affects the bottom line for JetBrains, since new builds is what brings in
the nice influx of cash. I hope that this is not an issue, because often
this results in a prematurely released product.

R

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:13:57 +0000, Hani Suleiman wrote:

Well, I think some measure of expectations would be nice. For example,
nobody expected the very early EAP's to work that well, they were all
about trying out new ideas, adding stuff that will later be removed,
getting feedback etc.

A few weeks back (sometime in early October I believe) someone from
jetbrains said that 4.0 would be out in late November (I believe they said
in 8 weeks). We're now well into December and new features are going in
(well, functionality that was previously present is being brought back -
web+ejb stuff), and the EAP's are still very buggy for a not-insignificant
number of people. So I think this is why some of us are quite seriously
concerned about the final quality of 4.0.

No performance tuning seems to have taken place yet, for example. For
those of you who run the EAP's daily, try out 3.0.5 sometime and you'll be
amazed at how much faster it is. So now we have a round of performance
tuning, bug fixes, AND incomplete features that need to be ironed out
before 4.0 release. That to me sounds like the work of a few months, not
weeks.

Of course, I'm not saying you should rush it just to get something out.
That would probably be the worst solution. What I AM saying is that to me
at least, this seems to vindicate somewhat the concern that some of us had
early on, that focussing on a bunch of new features that a (vocal)
minority needed would detract from IDEA's core strengths.

While I could be wrong (and desperately hope I am), my experience with the
latest EAP's has made me feel that those core strengths are being eroded
somewhat. Builds happen far more rarely than in the previous eap cycle,
progress seems to happen in one direction at a time (ui designer, cvs,
aspects) rather than across the board, and users are often left with near
non-functional builds for weeks. It all still feels like it's in heavy dev
mode rather than stabilisation mode.


0

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