Make IDEA an Eclipse plugin
Time for a new flame war, folks! This forum has become a bit drowsy, lately :)
I haven't posted this yet to the IDEA tracker, but I'd like IDEA to become an Eclipse plugin. Eclipse simply has a much better CVS integration. The CVS integration in IDEA would need much work to be done to become as good as Eclipse's. I also like the look and performance of Eclipse's UI.
The thing I miss about Eclipse is IDEAs features for working with and in the code. It's the refactorings, the intentional actions and the highlighting of unused and redundant stuff.
Why not replace the Java Development Tooling which is really crappy (For the next version - 2.1 - they have announced the ability to use keyboard shortcuts for frequently used commands - wow, what a feature) and use the good things in Eclipse : Team support, Plugin architecture, UI for IDEA.
And they are working on SWT for MacOS, so this can be no reason against it.
I don't fear that IDEAs identity will be lost by this step. IntelliJ still could bundle a big pack with the Eclipse plattform and the IDEA plugin and it shouldn't be that difficult to display the IDEA logo instead of the Eclipse logo at startup.
Another advantage would be that plugins developed for Eclipse could be used with IDEA. The availability of a plugin only for Eclipse would be no argument against IDEA.
I use IDEA whenever possible, but in some projects I am forced to use Eclipse. Eclipse is the only allowed ide there but noone will forbid me the usage of plugins I want to use.
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You should be on drugs. I'm sure. Noone could ever think about this with a lucid mind. I know.]]>
IDEA and Eclipse have very little in common, despite both being Java Devolopment Environment.
Their philosophies are quite different: IDEA tries to hold your hand, guide and help you to do what you already does the best: programming. Eclipse (and most other IDE) believes it's smarter than you, and try to do things for you. Now, I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just saying that this is quite different from IDEA.
There's also the "mindshare" problem. I've noted that many people who love Eclipse dislike IDEA, and vice versa. Man, it gives me the creeps to look at Eclipse after using IDEA. For once, I'd drop IDEA immediately if it started using SWT. Ever tried eclipse under linux? It's damn ugly, no matter what GTK theme you choose (and yes, I'm using gnome and love my themes).
Now, for the lighter side: there are good things about eclipse (I just didn't found them), so it might be worthy to keep and eye on it. You mentioned CVS integration -- mayhaps JetBrain folks are looking at it right now :)
What's wrong with IDEA's CVS integration. I think it is pretty good comapred to other IDEs (Together, JBuilder).
Thomas
Don't mention the two drinks I had yesterday. I'm quite sober. :)
Well, here you are wrong. Eclipse is not an IDE. It's a plattform for IDEs. There are IDEs for Eiffel, C#, Java and other languages based on Eclipse.
It is not Eclipse itself that tries to be smarter than you. Eclipse does not know anything about programming in Java. It's the Java Development Tooling that you can say such things about if you wish. The JDT is a descendent of Visual Age so it does not wonder that it behaves as it does. VA also killed you with many wizards and very little flexibility. So does the JDT, too. That's why I say: Replace the JDT with IDEA and use all those other useful things in Eclipse
Many are not all. I see advantages in both IDEA itself and the Eclipse plattform. Those that hate Eclipse, surely hate it because of the JDT.
What version of Eclipse did you test the last time. SWT is young and evolving. I doubt they would start developing the MacOS port if the Linux version did not work. As far as I know IBM has a great commitment to Linux. So they wouldn't ignore such problems, would they? I'm using it on Windows XP, Windows NT and Windows 2000 without any problems.
No wonder, you undoubtedly haven't tested it thoroughly because of your problems with SWT.
But why should they invent the wheel once again if it is already there and rolling.
IDEA using SWT -- now that would be killer.
I use IDEA because it is way better than Eclipse's Java Development Tooling. Better coding support, better refactorings etc. etc. However, the knock on IDEA -- to be more correct, Swing's to blame -- would be that it is definitely more sluggish and is more memory intensive. I know I can tweak that startup and max memory or plain just get more RAM. However, on a level playing field SWT-based apps are much faster.
IDEA as an Eclipse plug-in, or just a standalone SWT-based IDE....I would go for that.
Sri
Oh, I got your point now. I were refering to Eclipse the platform, opposed to Eclipse JDT. I know the difference between them -- it's just that in these forums people are usually refering to the JDT when they say "Eclipse".
Anyway... I don't think IDEA would benefit much from the Eclipse core platform. Perhaps JetBrains folks could shed some comments on this?
You're right when you said I haven't tested Eclipse a lot -- it's such a pain to move from IDEA -- but I really haven't found a single feature that could outdo IDEA. And oh, I don't really have problems with SWT. It does works, but the GTK port seems to lack the same level of polishment present in the Win32 port. Also, the lack of keyboard shortcurts is unnerving.
SWT is overrated. It claims to do all these snazzy things that make the application look more like the OS, but it still doesn't even adapt itself to the look and feel you have set for the rest of the OS!
In fact, I wouldn't think any Java toolkit does, unless you wrapped up Qt in Java and use that. Apparently SWT has been ported to Qt but can't be released due to Eclipse's incompatible licensing. Someone needs to do the same but release the binding under the same license as Qt.
Hi,
Eclipse's incompatible licensing.
Do you know where is it possible to look at the port? Or to get more
details?
--
Best regards,
Mike Aizatsky.
-
JetBrains, Inc / IntelliJ Software
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
Ugh! This little gem of an idea was proposed before and gleefully shot down, I suppose it's not surprising to see it show up again given the...enthusiasm of Eclipse users.
I'll say it loud and clear so even you Eclipse 'fans' will get it. Eclipse == MFC. It's great if you want a win32 IDE. On any other platform, it's too pathetic to even count as a good joke. I for one will weep hot tears of despair and anger if IDEA ever becomes subservient to Eclipse in this manner. Right now java developers are split between the two, and the only reason there is this split vs everyone switching to idea is that all the cheapskates like Eclipse since it's free.
Also regarding your 'working for SWT for MacOS'..it's one guy, doing it in his spare time, and the resultant build runs, shows a screen, then dies everytime you sneeze or look at it funny. Plus the last thing I'd want is to litter my beautiful OSX desktop with windowisms (whether you admit it or not, Eclipse draws heavily from win32 GUI paradigms, on ALL platforms)
Hey Hani,
I am a IDEA user, but I want to comment on something that u mentioned that I
feel is wrong..
You mentioned that "all the cheapskates like Eclipse since it's free" Now
what do u mean by this? In softwares, the rule.. "What u pay is what u get"
does not apply.
Some softwares can be open source and free, and can really good softwares.
Just for an example.. compare JBoss with Sun ONE Application Server. Sun ONE
Application Server is really expensive, but how many people truely say that
"it is worth the price".
Saumendra
Developing in pleasure.... yeaaaaaaaha
"Hani Suleiman" <hani@formicary.net> wrote in message
news:2426369.1039013889337.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
down, I suppose it's not surprising to see it show up again given
the...enthusiasm of Eclipse users.
>
== MFC. It's great if you want a win32 IDE. On any other platform, it's too
pathetic to even count as a good joke. I for one will weep hot tears of
despair and anger if IDEA ever becomes subservient to Eclipse in this
manner. Right now java developers are split between the two, and the only
reason there is this split vs everyone switching to idea is that all the
cheapskates like Eclipse since it's free.
>
his spare time, and the resultant build runs, shows a screen, then dies
everytime you sneeze or look at it funny. Plus the last thing I'd want is to
litter my beautiful OSX desktop with windowisms (whether you admit it or
not, Eclipse draws heavily from win32 GUI paradigms, on ALL platforms)
I stand by what I said, it's a matter of semantics!
'All cheapskates like Eclipse' does not say that anyone who uses Eclipse is a cheapskate. I'm sure there are many who prefer Eclipse over IDEA, while also being able to afford IDEA. However, if you assume someone is a cheapskate (regardless of their preference), then Eclipse is a 'better' product, by dint of being free.
As for JBoss, my personal opinion is that it's 'worth as much as the price (not including docs!)' ;)]]>
HAHA, After trying to work with JBOSS for the past 2 months, we deployed and I tossed it out the window 2 weeks after because of all its problems with war files, and stability issues, not to mention its dog slow speed.
On the other hand, had ORION gotten its act together and released a release faster than what they've been promissing I'd be using it. I switched to Resin, and if that doesn't hold up, it's Tomcat... at least until we finish doing our tests on the 'high end' app servers like Oracle AS9i (Orion at heart) and Websphere (which I'm dreading)
IMHO, Eclipse' way of managing windows is just beautiful. It lets me, the user, decide of how I should be arranging my windows and where. Paned, tabbed, split, floating.. I'm not constrained by one-tool-window-at-a-time left/right/top/down. I can see many different files at the same time, along with many other things. Exactly the things I want to see, layed out the way I like.
IDEA is a wonderful IDE. Staying open-minded will help IDEA grow even better. The "IDEA is the only thing -- the rest is crap" attitude that can be seen all over this forum can only harm IDEA in the long term and it's sad. Eclipse has some real good things and IDEA would certainly benefit from looking at them rather than ditching them instantly just because it's Eclipse.
Vince.
I don't think this is the issue at all. The intellij folks have shown time and time again that they pay close attention to everything else that is going on in the java world. I'm sure they are able to evaluate Eclipse and see its strengths and weaknesses and how that might affect IDEA positively or negatively.
The issue here is that the original request is to make IDEA a part of Ecplise, a plugin. That to me implies it's rather subservient. IDEA and Eclipse now compete as equals (and IMHO, IDEA wins with incredible ease and style), making it a plugin to Eclipse would mean giving up and losing the fight when you're winning and way on top. A very strange tactic indeed!
I don't think you're right. Eclipse is a plattform for IDEs. Using a plattform doesn't make you subservient to anyone. Or do you feel subservient in using the Java Plattform which is a more generic plattform for all sorts of applications. The JDT which can but must not be downloaded with Eclipse is just an example for what can be done with Eclipse. I'm fully convinced that the IntelliJ folks could do better things with it than what the ones who develop the JDT did up to now. And they could do it much faster.
I don't think they compete as equals. JDT is much inferior to IDEA, but Eclipse itself brings some interesting ideas into the IDE landscape. They have a very good and clear plugin concept (It is indeed that good that you can develop even non IDE-applications with it and can use plugins as a higher level module concept). It's notion of perspectives is also quite nice.
As of now I think both would benefit. Eclipse would benefit from the fact that the best Java IDE would be based on the Eclipse plattform and IDEA would benefit from the features of Eclipse. As far as I know the next JBuilder will be based on Eclipse. With this you have IBM, Rational, Borland, Oracle and some other IDE builders I cannot remember now building their IDEs on Eclipse. I think Eclipse succeeds where Netbeans failed. It attracts various IDE companies. Their IDEs may not be as good as IDEA but they have a bigger market share. So plugins for various tasks such as the development toward a specific application server will be available here. It certainly will become a criterion for some companies whether there is such or another plugin available for an IDE when they'll choose an IDE.
Sure we'll be fine with IDEA as long as we don't need such a plugin. And even if we could use such a plugin, we are hard core programmers, so we would use IDEA anyway.
But would it be sufficient for IDEA to have a group of fanantic followers? Would it pay the work? Making IDEA an Eclipse plugin would enable IDEA to compete against WSAD, JBuilder and what other IDEs may come in the future. The plugins for Eclipse wouldn't be a reason against IDEA.
Robert.. I also agree with what u said. The fact that u gave that JBuilder
will have their next IDE based on Eclipse is something interesting. But the
fact is that Borland can afford this cause Borland is a multinational
company. IntelliJ, as u know is a very small company, and if they have to
rebuild IDEA and make it a plugin for Eclipse, it will cost alot of time to
start from scratch. Right now IntelliJ has a working IDE, and adding
features to this IDE won't be that much of a problem. Moreover IntelliJ has
spent alot of time behind their gui, which has turned out really good. I
don't think they will want to sacrific it and exchange it with SWT. It would
really be a good idea if IntelliJ could do this, but it won't happen. I have
also heard that SWT has some drawback on computers running on different
flavors of unix.
"Robert F. Beeger" <jiveadmin@jetbrains.com> wrote in message
news:3120580.1039283649515.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
plattform doesn't make you subservient to anyone. Or do you feel subservient
in using the Java Plattform which is a more generic plattform for all sorts
of applications. The JDT which can but must not be downloaded with Eclipse
is just an example for what can be done with Eclipse. I'm fully convinced
that the IntelliJ folks could do better things with it than what the ones
who develop the JDT did up to now. And they could do it much faster.
>
Eclipse itself brings some interesting ideas into the IDE landscape. They
have a very good and clear plugin concept (It is indeed that good that you
can develop even non IDE-applications with it and can use plugins as a
higher level module concept). It's notion of perspectives is also quite
nice.
>
that the best Java IDE would be based on the Eclipse plattform and IDEA
would benefit from the features of Eclipse. As far as I know the next
JBuilder will be based on Eclipse. With this you have IBM, Rational,
Borland, Oracle and some other IDE builders I cannot remember now building
their IDEs on Eclipse. I think Eclipse succeeds where Netbeans failed. It
attracts various IDE companies. Their IDEs may not be as good as IDEA but
they have a bigger market share. So plugins for various tasks such as the
development toward a specific application server will be available here. It
certainly will become a criterion for some companies whether there is such
or another plugin available for an IDE when they'll choose an IDE.
>
even if we could use such a plugin, we are hard core programmers, so we
would use IDEA anyway.
>
Would it pay the work? Making IDEA an Eclipse plugin would enable IDEA to
compete against WSAD, JBuilder and what other IDEs may come in the future.
The plugins for Eclipse wouldn't be a reason against IDEA.
Ugh. I HATE the way Eclipse divides the screen into little windows, and I LOVE the way Intellij's GUI works. I think it would be a huge loss for Intellij to move into Eclipse.
Anyhow, it violates the "if it ain't broke" rule. IDEA is already the best programmer's IDE on the market... no contest. No point in rejoining the pack.
>Ugh. I HATE the way Eclipse divides the screen into >little windows
you probably havent taken the time to find out that you can CONFIGURE eclipse all you want, and have it show as many windows as you like. You can even define different perspectives showing different combinations of views on the same items.
For some people choices seem to be overwhelming..
regards,
Christian
Christian Sell wrote:
>
>
>
>
You can configure it to move windows anywhere but I don't see that as a
big advantage. Why not just get the windows right the first time.
Also: try using it all with the keyboard. I find myself constantly
switching to the mouse when using eclipse. The keyboard bindings cant
be configured either (of the few that are offered).
IMO people who admire SWT have never tried to code any non-trivial GUI using SWT. Having spent several months on building a form editor, based on SWT, I'd say that SWT is a genuine piece of crap. It is as lowlevel as MFC and it provides very limited API. Usage of native controls in SWT results in GUI suffering from all bugs and features of these controls on the particular host OS.
Even despite Swing is slow, memory-aggressive and not bug-free, it is still way more stable, functional and extensible than SWT.
You never responded to the previous question about CVS.
What don't you like about IDEA's CVS integration? I find it very good. It makes far more sense to me than WinCVS.
What suggestions would you make for improvement?
You're right. I somehow forgot it. I'll do it now.
As far as I know in IDEA there are to methods to how to get your project initially downloaded and the ipr-File created.
Use your cvs client directly and checkout the project into the desired directory. Then start IDEA, create a project in the directory of the checkout and enable cvs. IDEA will recognize that the files are under cvs control and will get it the right way, so that you can commit and update as expected.
Create a new project, enable cvs, specify the full path on the cvs server to your project, checkout.
So to get the knowledge of what projects are available you'll need ViewCVS or anything like this.
Eclipse includes an CVS-Explorer. You only specify the cvs server, your username and password and get the hole repository presented in a tree view where you can choose which project you are interested in and can check it out as an Eclipse project.
You also have access to the full history of the files. You see the comments that were made for the versions of a file, you can simply start a diff with any version and replace your file with any of the versions. The integration is more point and click than in IDEA. In IDEA you can do most of the things but you have , for example, to know the exact version tag of the version you are interested in. IDEAs integration layer is very thin and the pecularities of cvs shine through it on many places. Eclipse's integration is more to the point. If I want to compare a file with a version from yesterday, for which I used a specifiq log message that I remember than I can simoly do so in Eclipse.
And Eclipse supports cvs via ssh tunneling? Is that available in IDEA?
Phil Hershkowitz wrote:
I haven't found the function to check a project into CVS yet (cvs import).
Best regards,
Dirk Dittert