36MB? You cant be serious.

Guess I'll be stuck at #655 for a while. I dont need another JRE. And
editing the .bat file was not that hard.

I might get around to #657 one day but the decision to bundle a JRE will
singlehandedly reduce the number of people trying the EAP version, which is
the opposite of what you should be trying to do.

I'll continue to report what I see in #655 for the time being.

Michael.


42 comments
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I agree, being an IDE for java development I think it is safe to assume that
everyone already has a JDK installed. There is no reason that we should
have to download a JRE.


"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:ao1ppi$81a$1@is.intellij.net...

Guess I'll be stuck at #655 for a while. I dont need another JRE. And
editing the .bat file was not that hard.

>

I might get around to #657 one day but the decision to bundle a JRE will
singlehandedly reduce the number of people trying the EAP version, which

is

the opposite of what you should be trying to do.

>

I'll continue to report what I see in #655 for the time being.

>

Michael.

>
>


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+100. Tell us what JDK version is required, and let us take the
responsibility for installing it.

thanks.

Josh Knowles wrote:

I agree, being an IDE for java development I think it is safe to assume that
everyone already has a JDK installed. There is no reason that we should
have to download a JRE.


"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:ao1ppi$81a$1@is.intellij.net...

>>Guess I'll be stuck at #655 for a while. I dont need another JRE. And
>>editing the .bat file was not that hard.
>>
>>I might get around to #657 one day but the decision to bundle a JRE will
>>singlehandedly reduce the number of people trying the EAP version, which


is

>>the opposite of what you should be trying to do.
>>
>>I'll continue to report what I see in #655 for the time being.
>>
>>Michael.
>>
>>




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I agree. JetBrains, please continue to provide IDEA without a JRE.
-Thomas

"Christian Sell" <christian.sell@netcologne.de> wrote in message
news:3DA46DA2.4070804@netcologne.de...

+100. Tell us what JDK version is required, and let us take the
responsibility for installing it.

>

thanks.

>

Josh Knowles wrote:

I agree, being an IDE for java development I think it is safe to assume

that

everyone already has a JDK installed. There is no reason that we should
have to download a JRE.

>
>

"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:ao1ppi$81a$1@is.intellij.net...

>
>>Guess I'll be stuck at #655 for a while. I dont need another JRE. And
>>editing the .bat file was not that hard.
>>
>>I might get around to #657 one day but the decision to bundle a JRE will
>>singlehandedly reduce the number of people trying the EAP version, which
>

is

>
>>the opposite of what you should be trying to do.
>>
>>I'll continue to report what I see in #655 for the time being.
>>
>>Michael.
>>
>>
>
>
>

>
>


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My 2c:

for EAP builds, where we download new ones very often
IDEA should come as an archive without jre.
instructions about which exact jre version to use should be bundled.
Maybe that jdk can be provided as a separate zip.
IDEA code should check jdk version on startup

For the release version, to cut down dumb support request, it'd wiser
for IDEA to only come bundled with a JDK in the binary installers.
Power users will always prefer an archive plus a shell script, and that
version may come with no jre.

Edo

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We we should?

Anyone have a web server running available to act as a host?

I doubt they would mind. It's not like we are pirating their software.
Hell...we're trying to help them improve their product.

Just post up a zip file minus the JRE like the good old days. Or email it
to others on request. I personally do not feel like downloading 36MB *each
time*.




"Thomas Vollmer" <thomas.vollmer@itt.com> wrote in message
news:ao1qu6$9d5$1@is.intellij.net...

I agree. JetBrains, please continue to provide IDEA without a JRE.
-Thomas

>

"Christian Sell" <christian.sell@netcologne.de> wrote in message
news:3DA46DA2.4070804@netcologne.de...

+100. Tell us what JDK version is required, and let us take the
responsibility for installing it.

>

thanks.

>

Josh Knowles wrote:

I agree, being an IDE for java development I think it is safe to

assume

that

everyone already has a JDK installed. There is no reason that we

should

have to download a JRE.

>
>

"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:ao1ppi$81a$1@is.intellij.net...

>
>>Guess I'll be stuck at #655 for a while. I dont need another JRE.

And

>>editing the .bat file was not that hard.
>>
>>I might get around to #657 one day but the decision to bundle a JRE

will

>>singlehandedly reduce the number of people trying the EAP version,

which

>

is

>
>>the opposite of what you should be trying to do.
>>
>>I'll continue to report what I see in #655 for the time being.
>>
>>Michael.
>>
>>
>
>
>

>
>

>
>


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I agree 100% with Edoardo. IDEA is a terrific tool, all other IDEs are a joke in comparison (even JDeveloper). Please keep the EAP builds JRE-free and consider including it as one of the option for the release version.

I already have several JRE installed on my machine: 1.3.1 for my apps, 1.4 for IDEA and 1.1.8 for the Oracle Java crap. I really do not need another JRE installation, especially on a low-quality OS like Windows XP.

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+1

I am also delaying 657 upgrade.

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I have to agree that having the JRE with IDEA is a real waste of download time and disk space. I've got great bandwidth for download but your server obviously doesn't. I can download a whole 600 meg CD image of Oracle quicker than 657 so please reconsider your choice about bundling the JRE+tools.jar.
It was a bit of a pain having to edit the idea.bat to change the location of the JDK (I always use a /java prefix), that was solved with the excellent IDEA_JAVA_HOME which I just set to %JAVA_HOME% but 35 meg is a serious step in the wrong direction. You'll be like TogetherJ before you know it and the whole process will take 20 minutes to install.

Respectfully,

-John-

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Every other IDE on the market, AFAIK comes bundled with a JRE...this is nothing new. Its stupid to get so bent out of shape or offended haha. Delete the bundled JRE if your so insulted and use your own. This is by no means a make or break change. jetbrains people, keep doing what you need to do, to make the best IDE around, hands down.

thank you,
-Andre Mermegas

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+100

I'm staying with 655 for now. ... I don't get the point of bundled JRE at
all....

Ales Pour

"Christian Sell" <christian.sell@netcologne.de> wrote in message
news:3DA46DA2.4070804@netcologne.de...

+100. Tell us what JDK version is required, and let us take the
responsibility for installing it.

>

thanks.

>

Josh Knowles wrote:

I agree, being an IDE for java development I think it is safe to assume

that

everyone already has a JDK installed. There is no reason that we should
have to download a JRE.

>
>

"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:ao1ppi$81a$1@is.intellij.net...

>
>>Guess I'll be stuck at #655 for a while. I dont need another JRE. And
>>editing the .bat file was not that hard.
>>
>>I might get around to #657 one day but the decision to bundle a JRE will
>>singlehandedly reduce the number of people trying the EAP version, which
>

is

>
>>the opposite of what you should be trying to do.
>>
>>I'll continue to report what I see in #655 for the time being.
>>
>>Michael.
>>
>>
>
>
>

>
>


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I'm staying with 655 for now. ... I don't get the point of bundled JRE at

all....

Ditto.

...Jochen Riekhof



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Yes!
+1 here.

Armond

"Christian Sell" <christian.sell@netcologne.de> wrote in message
news:3DA46DA2.4070804@netcologne.de...

+100. Tell us what JDK version is required, and let us take the
responsibility for installing it.

>

thanks.

>

Josh Knowles wrote:

I agree, being an IDE for java development I think it is safe to assume

that

everyone already has a JDK installed. There is no reason that we should
have to download a JRE.

>
>

"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:ao1ppi$81a$1@is.intellij.net...

>
>>Guess I'll be stuck at #655 for a while. I dont need another JRE. And
>>editing the .bat file was not that hard.
>>
>>I might get around to #657 one day but the decision to bundle a JRE will
>>singlehandedly reduce the number of people trying the EAP version, which
>

is

>
>>the opposite of what you should be trying to do.
>>
>>I'll continue to report what I see in #655 for the time being.
>>
>>Michael.
>>
>>
>
>
>

>
>


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Seems that 655 will be the last version for many of us.
See Request #5320, time to vote for it.

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Besides the download, I don't want to clutter my
disk and force my OS to cache and page in the
binaries, libraries, jars etc. of two equal JDKs.

- Afford the time to download 657 :(
- Unzip it
- Delete the "jre" subdir
- Replace the file "bin/idea.bat" with the following
and change c:\jdk1.4.1 as needed

@echo off
SET IDEA_HOME=..
SET PATH=%IDEA_HOME%\bin;%PATH%

SET JVM_ARGS=-Xms48m -Xmx128m
SET JVM_ARGS=%JVM_ARGS% -Dsun.java2d.noddraw=true
SET JVM_ARGS=%JVM_ARGS% -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC
SET JVM_ARGS=%JVM_ARGS% -Didea.system.path="%IDEA_HOME%\system"
SET JVM_ARGS=%JVM_ARGS% -Didea.config.path="%IDEA_HOME%\config"
SET JVM_ARGS=%JVM_ARGS% -Didea.popup.weight=heavy

SET CP=%IDEA_HOME%\lib\idea.jar
SET CP=%CP%;%IDEA_HOME%\lib\jdom.jar
SET CP=%CP%;%IDEA_HOME%\lib\log4j.jar
SET CP=%CP%;c:\jdk1.4.1\lib\tools.jar

c:\jdk1.4.1\bin\javaw %JVM_ARGS% -cp "%CP%" com.intellij.idea.Main %*

Unix users will know how to change their scripts :)

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Delete the bundled JRE if your so insulted...


Please don't inflame a genuine debate. It's got nothing to do with being insulted. The main problem is that many people's connection to the internet is very slow and it can take some hours for them to download a 36Mb file (with the added bonus of lost connections, etc.). When two thirds of the download consists of a JRE that the recipient already has and there's a proven track record of downloading without the JRE then it's not surprising that there will be protests.

This is by no means a make or break change.


Actually for some people, it is. There appears to be no particular reason (certainly none given yet) why an EAP version can't still be made available without a JRE. Consequently, there are bound to be rumbling in IntelliJ's volunteer EAP/software testing community.

I joined the EAP when the downloads were approximately 8Mb since then they had grown by 50% to over 13Mb. Tripling the size again for no functional gain is a risky strategy.

Vince.

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I believed that idea has evolved into such a wonderful IDE because it's developed by real programmers, who understand the needs of other fellow programmers. However, I am very disappointed by this attitude of IntelliJ folks. They dont seem to trust EAP members to install correct JREs... Why else are they forcing it into our throats? And change of #5320 status to 'do not fix' reflects very very badly on them.

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Hi,

They dont seem to trust EAP members to install correct JREs...


I can remember much more than one post with problems running EAP builds
which were the result of running IDEA under JRE.


--
Best regards,
Mike Aizatsky.
-


JetBrains, Inc / IntelliJ Software
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"


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Poll: How fast can you download / 36M.. you must be joking

Related to all the fuss about the latest distribution size,
here is a new commmunity poll, "How fast is your Internet Access/can you
download" :
http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HowFastCanYouDownload

Many people complain about the size of the new distribution, mostly
related to download speed.
Is this really a problem? Not for me, but I have ADSL.
And you? How fast can you download, at the place where you use IDEA, and
access the Internet.

Alain Ravet

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I can remember much more than one post with problems
running EAP builds
which were the result of running IDEA under JRE.

I can see your point and saw it from the beginning. That's why I have not participated in this discussion yet. Shipping a JRE with IDEA spares you the bug reports that aren't related to IDEA itself but to the JDK. Over the time there were people trying to run it under a JRE and under JDKs that were not yet supported by IDEA (JDK 1.4 some time ago). And with the newer builds some complained that they were forced to install JDK 1.4 although they only had projects running under JDK 1.3. The logical consequence is to bundle the JRE with it.

I'm having an ISDN connection with 64 kBits/s. Taking this and the fact that my download was interrupted several times and went at only 60 to 80% of the available bandwith it took me nearly three hours to get it on my box. That's ok for me as long as it is not necessary for each new build.

My only wish is that the next builds will be available as pure update packs without the JRE and possibly without the libs that do not change from build to build.

That's my 3 cent or so to it.

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>The main problem is that many people's connection to
>the internet is very slow and it can take some hours
>for them to download a 36Mb >file

Unless your employer runs his backbone on a 56k what does it really matter? I'd be willing to bet since most of us are tech people the vast Majority of us have DSL/Cable or better at home.

>Actually for some people, it is. There appears to be no
>particular reason (certainly none given yet) why an EAP
>version can't still be made available without a JRE.
>Consequently, there are bound to be rumbling in
>IntelliJ's volunteer EAP/software testing community.

I guess maybe i look at EAP differently. I feel its a privelage to be part of it and use, I dont think that I'm doing them a bigtime favor. They've already stated their reason and it sounds perfectly valid to me. They want to standardize their app on a particular JVM,for current use.

Also you must realize that ariadna is drawing to a close very very shortly i'd guess, thats why just recently the installers were added and jre, to get as close to the release package as possible for last minute bugs.

-Andre Mermegas

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I am on an ISDN line, and normally dont get more than 8 mbps on
downloads. The only time I found this to be a problem was when I needed
the Oracle CDs, which I let a friend do for me. However, IDEA now takes
me > 1 hour, which I will not do during EAP

All I (and others) requested is to provide an alternative dowmload
without JRE, but with clearly expressed JRE requirement. There should be
no point in arguing that further, really.

Andre Mermegas wrote:
>>The main problem is that many people's connection to
>>the internet is very slow and it can take some hours
>>for them to download a 36Mb >file


Unless your employer runs his backbone on a 56k what does it really matter? I'd be willing to bet since most of us are tech people the vast Majority of us have DSL/Cable or better at home.

>>Actually for some people, it is. There appears to be no
>>particular reason (certainly none given yet) why an EAP
>>version can't still be made available without a JRE.
>>Consequently, there are bound to be rumbling in
>>IntelliJ's volunteer EAP/software testing community.


I guess maybe i look at EAP differently. I feel its a privelage to be part of it and use, I dont think that I'm doing them a bigtime favor. They've already stated their reason and it sounds perfectly valid to me. They want to standardize their app on a particular JVM,for current use.

Also you must realize that ariadna is drawing to a close very very shortly i'd guess, thats why just recently the installers were added and jre, to get as close to the release package as possible for last minute bugs.

-Andre Mermegas



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How about IDEA checking the version of JDK it is running under (and making sure it's a JDK)
and bringing up an error dialog? Or even when running the installer, it can ask the user
to choose a JDK and validate it immediately?

Mike Aizatsky wrote:

Hi,

>>They dont seem to trust EAP members to install correct JREs...


I can remember much more than one post with problems running EAP builds
which were the result of running IDEA under JRE.


--
Best regards,
Mike Aizatsky.
------------------------------
JetBrains, Inc / IntelliJ Software
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"



--

Erb

==============================================================
"Most of you are familiar with the virtues of a programmer.
There are three, of course: laziness, impatience, and hubris."
- Larry Wall
==============================================================

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My concern isn't the time it takes to download it. My problem is with the
fact that why do I need another JRE on my system.

"Alain Ravet" <alain.ravet.list@wanadoo.be> wrote in message
news:ao3pgj$94m$1@is.intellij.net...

Poll: How fast can you download / 36M.. you must be joking

>

Related to all the fuss about the latest distribution size,
here is a new commmunity poll, "How fast is your Internet Access/can you
download" :
http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HowFastCanYouDownload

>

Many people complain about the size of the new distribution, mostly
related to download speed.
Is this really a problem? Not for me, but I have ADSL.
And you? How fast can you download, at the place where you use IDEA, and
access the Internet.

>

Alain Ravet

>


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Josh,

The answer is damn simple: the other way IDEA won't start at all.

PS IDEA doesn't register the JRE which comes with it anywhere. For you it's
just like IDEA has another .jar file inside.

--
Best regards,
Mike Aizatsky.
-


JetBrains, Inc / IntelliJ Software
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"


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The answer to this 'problem' seems fairly simple to me. Post a build without
the jre, along with the build with the jre, and make it our responsibility
to use the correct jre. This suggestion, obviously, only pertains to the
eap. I fully expect the final version to come with the required jre.

"Mike Aizatsky" <mike@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:ao4emv$9dq$1@is.intellij.net...

Josh,

>

The answer is damn simple: the other way IDEA won't start at all.

>

PS IDEA doesn't register the JRE which comes with it anywhere. For you

it's

just like IDEA has another .jar file inside.

>

--
Best regards,
Mike Aizatsky.
------------------------------
JetBrains, Inc / IntelliJ Software
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

>
>


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Staying with 651. In 655, it's impossible to edit build.xml.

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to use the correct jre. This suggestion, obviously, only pertains to the
eap. I fully expect the final version to come with the required jre.


why that? If it works for the EAP, it will work for GA as well..

(I am pretty sure this JRE thing is the hottest topic ever discussed on
this forum. I think we should keep it, even if just for the fun of it)

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Build 657 is a lot better.

Remigius Stalder wrote:

Staying with 651. In 655, it's impossible to edit build.xml.


--
Gordon Tyler
Software Developer, R&D
Sitraka -- Performance is Mission Critical

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This is clearly a step backwards, as by the introduction of the environment variable IDEA_JDK_HOME (for very few intellij builds, unfortunately) i did not have to touch this BAT file any more. AND: why do we have to hack the stuff we're using all the time? Before it was very transparent, now we have to find out how to get IDEA to use another JRE - how long will it work in this way? I'm (better: was) happy to switch to newer builds immediately, because it did not keep me from my work. It was very easy and I could also easily downgrade to the latest good version (which may not be the same combination of IDEA build and JDK that works for OTHER people!!!), all without loosing much time. If this stops, I'll reduce my upgrade frequency significantly, simply because I have work to get done, which has a higher priority than testing IDEA.

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hottest topic? Definitely.

I was on a coffee break and thought about the dynamics of the discussion at
jetbrains that led to this decision of including a JRE. i just know there
were some in the room that were against it. they pleaded their case but
were eventually overruled. now they are having fun, snickering and smiling
in an "i told you so" manner. the whispers are deafening.

or at least that's my theory. i cant imagine everyone at jetbrains thinking
this was a great idea. they are too darn smart over there as demonstrated by
the product they are building.

someone said "what the hell is the big deal!" and went ahead with this.
and the community spoke.


"Christian Sell" <christian.sell@netcologne.de> wrote in message
news:3DA5C3D7.5050704@netcologne.de...

to use the correct jre. This suggestion, obviously, only pertains to the
eap. I fully expect the final version to come with the required jre.

>

why that? If it works for the EAP, it will work for GA as well..

>

(I am pretty sure this JRE thing is the hottest topic ever discussed on
this forum. I think we should keep it, even if just for the fun of it)

>


0

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