long time eap member frustration and debugging problems on OS X

Hi,

I still got debugging problems on OS X (SCR 28414). The main window simply disappears during debugging (expanding the this node in the debugger seems to be one thing that can trigger this problem).

Back then, when I submitted this bug I thought that this would be a Stopship bug for 4.0. Especially, as Maxim confirmed that he experienced this at least once. But when I checked the tracker just a few minutes ago, it wasn't even opened yet.

I have been a long time member of the EAP community, but this is not the IntelliJ I remember from the past good old days. Please decide whether you want to support OS X or not. I can accept that screen menu bar does not work (although I can't see any reasons why it works in other applications but not in IDEA) but I cannot accept that I cannot debug my programs.

I also submitted a bug for junit that didn't work as expected. The bug was closed as not repeatable. After that I took the time to recreate my project with dummy files to keep the original structure and attached it to the bug report. Never heard of it again. Maybe the error was in my code, it couldn't be reproduced or the person responsible didn't bother to reevaluate. Probably, I'l never know. Again, this is not the IntelliJ that I remeber from the good old days.

There's some files that slow IDEA down, that much that I can type faster than IDEA can keep up with my typing speed (it doesn't loose characters but it feels like working on a slow terminal). And no, I am not talking about files with 30k lines. I have complained about that since I don't remember when. Things got better but it is still far from perfect.

I am quite sure that I could come up with some more examples if I tried real hard. I am a student and have to decide carefully on what to spend my money on. I just bought an update to 4.0 but right now, I am close to reevaluating other IDEs. Eclipse doesn't meet the high editing standards that I am used to (yet?) but maybe it allows me to enter my code at full typing speed and debug my programs. Maybe it even has a community that I used to know from good old IDEA days. Even if not: it's for free.

Best,

Dirk Dittert

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Dirk,

I understand your anger here clearly. Moreover I'd agree I miss those old days as well. Let's be honest. EAP is no
longer my (as a JetBrains developer) expectations as well. As it grows bigger it produces unprocessible input with a
large percent of either duplicates of the known problem or just user missunderstangings/errors. This way we (developers)
are serving mostly as a support stuff instead of moving forward taking the best from the world best community. Just see
the numbers 6-10k EAP members against 12 JetBrains developers. Bright ideas are still produced by many EAP members but
they just easily get lost in a crowd. Of course we can hire some EAP "preprocessors" but I always thought EAP the other
way: a direct contribution of the community to the development process.

Well, that was a kinda emotional and of course is my personal opinion.

Addressing your problems:

I still got debugging problems on OS X (SCR 28414).

That's true, I've been expecting that couple times. Still have no idea what may cause that. Looks very like JVM problem
though can't say more since I have no way to reproduce this consistently. BTW your "expanding this" idea is not
mentioned in SCR28414. And yes, we do support MacOS. I do full time development there and 28414 doesn't bother me much.
Instead I have couple of JVM core dumps weelky.

although I can't see any reasons why it works in other applications but not in IDEA

This itself doesn't mean there are no reasons, right? We have our own event queue and do rely on the input events
sequence that is the same under all platforms except Mac with system menu enabled.

I also submitted a bug for junit that didn't work as expected.

SCR number please. We'll do our best to investigate what the problem is.

There's some files that slow IDEA down

Do you have a reliable sample to show this up? If yes, did you filed a request? If yes what is the number?

I am quite sure that I could come up with some more examples if I tried real hard.

You're always welcome.

I am a student and have to decide carefully on what to spend my money on. I just bought an update to 4.0 but right now, I am close to reevaluating other IDEs. Eclipse doesn't meet the high editing standards that I am used to (yet?) but maybe it allows me to enter my code at full typing speed and debug my programs. Maybe it even has a community that I used to know from good old IDEA days. Even if not: it's for free.

What can I say on this? Good luck there.

--
Maxim Shafirov
IntelliJ Labs / JetBrains Inc.
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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I agree that we could produce some filtering... but you should give us the tools! I believe some "carefully chosen" users should be able at least to declare bugs obsolete and duplicate. And, yes, trusting the community may produce monsters such as the AspectJ integration in IDEA... but in general the community should contribute with voting. Maybe "negative voting" could help reduce the effect of "mass-hype-soon-dead" technologies? Well, Hani's biles could help, too...

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Maxim,

let me clarify one thing: I am not angry with you guys because you're not working hard enough, but I am frustrated that things don't work out as perfectly as I want them to be.

I do see that EAP has a lot more members than it used to have. This is a great chance for you because you have many beta testers. On the other hand, I guess many of them use EAP as an inexpensive way to use your great IDE. This is a political issue that I do not want to get into. For me, I always paid for my license (though it's only an Academic one).

Expanding the this node is just a "good" guess. All I can say is, that it never happened outside of the debugger. I'll update my bug report on that as soon as I get home.

I can confirm your core dumps (kern_protection failure) though. I do get those on my Powerbook but not on my G5. I experience them at least once a day. My current guess is that they are related to updating the installation. I'll reinstall 10.3 this week to see if that solves the problem.
Don't bother too much about screen menu bar -- I just used it to reinforce my point.

SCR for the junit problem is 28476. I am not that good with junit. Therefore I don't want to say that I did everything right. But I would never expect a class not found error (if I can select the class, I should be able to use it)

Speed issues: I was quite loud on this in the forums. I believe, I even had a discussion with you about that. I just checked -- I didn't file a SCR for that (though someone else might have). I'll check and submit separate SCRs for that.

Thank you for quick reply. This is how I remember the good old days.

Best,

Dirk

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"I am quite sure that I could come up with some more examples if I tried real hard. I am a student and have to decide carefully on what to spend my money on. I just bought an update to 4.0 but right now, I am close to reevaluating other IDEs. Eclipse doesn't meet the high editing standards that I am used to (yet?) but maybe it allows me to enter my code at full typing speed and debug my programs. Maybe it even has a community that I used to know from good old IDEA days. Even if not: it's for free."

Don't want to sound antagonistic, but that is something I find quite funny! You see, I use a PowerBook at home running Panther (WinXP in the office)... I found Eclipse (at least the version I was using) to be slow and unstable on the Mac... I got the company to purchase IDEA 4 for me mainly so that I would be able to use an editor stabily and with good performance on the Mac!!!

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In article <c48tem$2sq$1@is.intellij.net>,
"Maxim Shafirov (JetBrains)" <max@intellij.com> wrote:

although I can't see any reasons why it works in other applications but not
in IDEA

This itself doesn't mean there are no reasons, right? We have our own event
queue and do rely on the input events
sequence that is the same under all platforms except Mac with system menu
enabled.


Hi, Maxim.

The primary reason why I would want to use the screen menu bar is to
keep the bloody hide menu item from getting greyed out along with
everything but "services" in the application menu.

Fix this one, and you would make me happy indeed.

I understand that it does not show up if you are using the screen menu
bar, but that is not possible for other reasons.

If a paid tech support incident with Apple's DTS would help, please let
me know. I have one that expires in two weeks, and would be glad to
contribute it if you can give me an Apple bug number for them to look at.

Scott

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Scott,

Screen menu bar and system actions being hidden are totally unrelated problems AFAIK. There have been a notion in apple
java-seed lists that hiding actions are related to incorrect processing of modal dialogs being shown and hidden back and
forth. On other hand there was a workaround suggested by some user to the support@jetbrains.com I yet have to validate.
If that workaround helps I hope you'll get menu actions working soon.

--
Maxim Shafirov
IntelliJ Labs / JetBrains Inc.
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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In article <c49rtr$96v$1@is.intellij.net>,
"Maxim Shafirov (JetBrains)" <max@intellij.com> wrote:

Scott,

Screen menu bar and system actions being hidden are totally unrelated
problems AFAIK. There have been a notion in apple
java-seed lists that hiding actions are related to incorrect processing of
modal dialogs being shown and hidden back and
forth. On other hand there was a workaround suggested by some user to the
support@jetbrains.com I yet have to validate.
If that workaround helps I hope you'll get menu actions working soon.


I did recently try replacing the Contents/idea with
/System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/A/Resources/MacOS/Ja
vaApplicationStub on my 10.3.3 machine with all normal user Java
updates, and the problems seem to have gone away thus far. If the other
workaround fails, try this one. It is 10.3.3 specific, unfortunately,
but it sure seems to help there.

If it turns out that you have a fix for the show/hide problem, the offer
of the tech support incident at Apple is open for ScreenMenuBar problems
as well, or for an effort to use native code to speed up the "app to
front" performance. The incident is going to expire soon, so I am ok
with it going to help the performance of an app I use regularly.

Scott

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