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looks really good!!! this is the way to go for the intelliJ-guys IMO!!!

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The swt-designer looks just like everyone else’s. Just like JBuilder, netbeans, Visual Age and wSAD, it just generates code that needs to be hand-tweeked by the programmer. Of course the programmer will also be tempted to make some minor change to the generated code. At that point the parser will no longer be able to read the file and the designer will become useless.

That's what separates IDEA from the others. Until this EAP, Java GUI development has been two steps backwards from the ease of use found in Visual Basic back in 1993. Part of the ease of VB was the separation of form code from event code. The programmer only had access to the code that really matters.

Rather than pushing IDEA back towards the less usable 'standard', maybe we should be pushing the standard forward to comply with IDEA. If IDEA were to release their byte code manipulation libraries as open source, a JSR could be opened suggesting everyone adopt this method of gui layout.

looks really good!!! this is the way to go for the
intelliJ-guys IMO!!!


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Bryan, I can not agree with you.
Advanced Eclipse SWT Designer is two-way tool. You can change code by hands, and Designer will parse it and show result. You can change any property value, for example change text in setText() call, change style in constructor, add new controls, remove old one.

Designer also allows you to add event handlers (see demo2), so you can call your method and write needed logic. I have designed 10 dialogs for my other application and never have had need to look or change source code for GUI building. But I can do this. :)

Of course, there are limitations, but you can tell, that minot changes make designer useless.

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On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:39:24 +0000, Konstantin Scheglov wrote:

Advanced Eclipse SWT Designer is two-way tool. You can change code by


Interestingly that violates one of Borlands patents on two-way tools...

Wish I could find the URL for that thou.


--
...turn to the light - don't be frightened by the shadows it creates,
...turn to the light - turning away could be a terrible mistake
...dream theater - the great debate


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Thanks for this comment, Mark.

There already was discussion about Borland patent in Eclipse newsgroup and we found, that this patent has nothing with changing source code via GUI and GUI via source code. It is related only with event handling mechanism in Delphi, but Java uses another method.

But may be I don't remember right, would be great, if you can provide URL.

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So it does the same thing as JBuilder, NetBeans, Visual Age and wSad... just parses the code better than its competition?

That’s great, but its still not as good as not having any code at all. There isn't a VB programmer out there worried about Swing taking over the market. They know that in this market, simplicity is valued over flexibility. Mac OSX Objective-C programmers know you can have both... so does IntelliJ. I look forward to seeing the completed designer. It should produce some very clean, maintainable code very quickly.

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So it does the same thing as JBuilder, NetBeans,
Visual Age and wSad... just parses the code better
than its competition?

Yes.

That’s great, but its still not as good as not having
any code at all. There isn't a VB programmer out
there worried about Swing taking over the market.

I don't see reason for this.
If you don't need code, just don't look on it. Who cares in this case, how designer stores design - in cool XML, or in plain source code?

They know that in this market, simplicity is valued
over flexibility. Mac OSX Objective-C programmers
know you can have both... so does IntelliJ. I look
forward to seeing the completed designer. It should
produce some very clean, maintainable code very
quickly.

I hope, that designer already does this.


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On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:19:12 +0000, Konstantin Scheglov wrote:

There already was discussion about Borland patent in Eclipse newsgroup and
we found, that this patent has nothing with changing source code via GUI
and GUI via source code. It is related only with event handling mechanism
in Delphi, but Java uses another method.

But may be I don't remember right, would be great, if you can provide URL.



http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,27281,00.html

Patent Abstract

A visual development system is described which provide "method pointers"
allowing a developer/user to achieve delegation between objects
programmatically as well as visually. Delegation "binds" an event source
with an event handler. This binding is directly supported within the
programming language of the system. Using a simple assignment statement,
the user can assign a handler of one object (i.e., delegated-to object) to
the method pointer of another object (i.e., delegated-from object). A
delegation through assignment leads to not only the address of the method
being copied but also the address of the delegated-to object (i.e., "this"
pointer) being copied into the method pointer. The method pointer, when
called, can invoke the pointed-to method on that (delegated-to) object,
complete with the context (e.g., local data) of the object. The object
knows about itself and, thus, can provide the appropriate context. In this
fashion, the system allows the user to easily control object behavior
through delegation, whether the user is working in a visual environment or
a programming environment (or switching back and forth between each).



So.... this seems to be talking more about the assignment of event
handlers/method pointers to an instance of a class. It would seem (
unless I'm grosely mistaken ) that this could be applied to Action's or
ActionListeners.... maybe...

Mark



--
...turn to the light - don't be frightened by the shadows it creates,
...turn to the light - turning away could be a terrible mistake
...dream theater - the great debate


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Yes, this is same patent as described in Eclipse news group, thank you for searching it.
I don't think that Designer violates it, or may be violates in same degree as Java itself.

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That's what separates IDEA from the others. Until this EAP, Java GUI development has been two steps backwards from the ease of use found in Visual Basic back in 1993. Part of the ease of VB was the separation of form code from event code. The programmer only had access to the code that really matters.

This assumes that Java and VB are aimed at the same segment of the developer market, which I'm not sure is the case.

VB is much easier to use, no doubt about it, but the trade-off is flexibility; which is why it tends to be used for in-house applications, rather than developing commercial applications.

Java on the other hand, has been used to create IDEs, Office applications, UML designers etc.

I guess it all depends on who JetBrains intended audience is for this ....

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I disagree with most of your post, but this point is especially harmful to the development of Java:

"VB is much easier to use, no doubt about it, but the trade-off is flexibility"

I believe too many people actually believe that VB is easy to use because it's not flexible. This just isn't true. Objective-C takes advantage of MVC and all it's benefits, but that didn't stop Apple from making a drag and great drop gui designer complete with drag-and-drop data binding.

The only reason Java can't be every bit as user-friendly as VB, is everyone’s insistence to sticking to the javabeans framework --- which is so useless that most good Swing programs have to be hand-coded.

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Well, if you were right, then Microsoft would be churning all their applications out in VB ... rather than C++.

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Objective-C takes advantage of MVC
and all it's benefits, but that didn't stop Apple
from making a drag and great drop gui designer
complete with drag-and-drop data binding.


Aww, stoppit. I just spent the whole afternoon doing 1/4 of what I could have done in InterfaceBuilder in under 3 minutes, and I want to cry. Much as I love Idea, which kicks ProjectBuilder square in the butt, I still wish I'd managed to sell the project I'm working on as OpenStep rather than Java. Here's hoping that the EAP release I'm busy sucking down at the moment will save me some lost time, as the time I'm losing doing GUI at the moment is about 20 times that I've saved by using the refactoring tools rather than refactoring by hand.

It's not like this is new technology or anything. IB dates back to the original NeXTStep release (what, 1987 or so? - Maybe 1991? I forget.)

Simon

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It's not like this is new technology or anything. IB dates back to the

original NeXTStep release (what, 1987 or so? - Maybe 1991? I forget.)

I think it was 1989.

Ciao

...Jochen



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"Bryan Young" <BryanYoung@scruffles.net> wrote in message
news:4167558.1060182223531.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...

The swt-designer looks just like everyone else?s. Just like JBuilder,

netbeans, Visual Age and wSAD, it just generates code that needs to be
hand-tweeked by the programmer. Of course the programmer will also be
tempted to make some minor change to the generated code. At that point the
parser will no longer be able to read the file and the designer will become
useless.
>

That's what separates IDEA from the others. Until this EAP, Java GUI

development has been two steps backwards from the ease of use found in
Visual Basic back in 1993. Part of the ease of VB was the separation of
form code from event code. The programmer only had access to the code that
really matters.

Here what Borland patent tells about VB:

"In Microsoft Visual Basic, a limited form of "delegation" is available in
the sense that a new button is not created in order to modify the behavior
of a button. In Visual Basic, for instance, one can associate code with an
event in the visual environment. The user cannot programmatically (i.e.,
through code), however, change what code gets executed upon occurrence of a
particular event, such as the clicking of a particular button. Instead,
Visual Basic provides an internal dispatcher so that an association created
in the visual environment between an event and program code (which is to
execute in response to that event) is carried out at runtime execution of
the program. Specifically, the runtime interpreter of Visual Basic "behind
the scenes" transfers control to the entry point of the relevant event
handler, upon occurrence of the event. This type of "delegation" is
pre-wired by the design environment and is not reflected in the language, as
a language construct. The problem with this approach, of course, is that the
user programmer cannot "get at" the internal code which is hard wired into
the Visual Basic interpreter. One cannot modify programmatically where
control gets delegated to (i.e., what event handler is invoked when the
button is clicked). Since users of such products are unable to
programmatically control aspects of the program which correspond to actions
undertaken in the visual environment, runtime modification of where control
gets delegated to is not possible."

Of course, this was written in the times of VB4/VB5, but the fact is that
Borland's approach is much better. From the other point of view, I do not
see what is so exceptional of passing a method pointer to another class.
Plain C++ can do that as well. Borland guys were bright enuogh to use method
pointers to ease off GUI development, but the principle of passing an object
method pointer is not something new.

Anyway, Delphi rules. By the way, Delphi stores form in the FRM file, but
source code can be generated starting from Delphi 3.0 What I like about
Delphi is the ease of getting into, the ease of "peeling the onion". If one
needs simple app with couple of dialogs, then create a form, drop a control,
write an even handler and voila! here is your cool Win32 app. But at the
same time if one needs the access to message cycle, or dispatching
mechanism, or to Win API structures like window handles -- this can be
accessed with ease and exactly on the layer one needs it. Delphi allows to
peel the onion gently, not letting you cry right away from the abundance of
the technology. Delphi is arguably most understated development tool ever.
It is so simple to use yet so powerful that people just do not see its
complexity.

I would like IDEA to be like Delphi in this sense. It might be a cool
tagline: "Peel the onion as slow as you need", or "peel only the layers that
you need" or "Our onion is the sweetest of all" or something like that,
IntelliJ marketing guys, you got the IDEA? ;)


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Instantiations acquires Eclipse plug-in SWT Designer

http://www.sdtimes.com/news/088/story16.htm

October 15, 2003 - Instantiations Inc. has bought itself a Russian.

More specifically, the Java tools company late last month acquired SWT
Designer, an application created by Konstantin Scheglov, to ante itself into
the nascent Java GUI-building tools market. Instantiations and Scheglov, a
regular contributor in the IBM's Eclipse community, will continue to have an
ongoing relationship as the product is developed, according to the company's
CEO, Mike Taylor. The terms of the acquisition were not disclosed.
Instantiations sells the CodePro line of Java programming tools for IBM's
WebSphere and Eclipse IDEs.
...
SWT Designer was written to be a plug-in to the Eclipse open-source
development framework, and Taylor said Instantiations intends to offer a
Standard Widget Toolkit GUI builder for use atop IBM's Java IDEs, as well as
a Swing/Abstract Window Toolkit (AWT) version for those who want strict
adherence to Sun's Java specifications.



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From Q&A:
http://www.instantiations.com/PR/SWT-Designer-QA.PDF

Q: Do you plan to support Swing?
A: Yes, we plan to add support for Swing at some point in the near future.

Q: Why are you supporting a non-standard Java technology like SWT?
A: The popularity of SWT indicates that for many purposes it's an
alternative that many developers would like to have access to. At
Instantiations we intend to give professional developers the ability to
choose the technology alternative that best meets their needs.

Q: Will you continue to offer and support the free version of SWT Designer?
A: Instantiations will always offer free evaluation versions of our
products. We haven't made a final decision about whether we will continue to
have a free version SWT Designer, or what form it might take if we do. What
do you think we should do?

Q: Will you offer SWT Designer products that work with non-Eclipse IDEs
(i.e. J Builder)?
A: Yes, it is our intention to offer a version that is IDE agnostic.


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Simon Stapleton <no_reply@jetbrains.com> wrote:

Aww, stoppit. I just spent the whole afternoon doing 1/4 of what I could
have done in InterfaceBuilder in under 3 minutes, and I want to cry.


Do you know http://www.jgoodies.com/freeware/forms/index.html ? That
helped a lot with my Swing productivity. I am doing my layouts several
times faster with a lot less code.

Dirk Dittert

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