14 comments
Comment actions Permalink

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it part
of the IDE?

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in my
next project, so I am just a bit curious.

thanks
- scott

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but it
does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

Scott,
In this case guys from IntelliJ may resuse this plugin.
I think any plugin is usefull if it created by dewveloper even as for
himself.

"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in my
next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but it
does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

Yeah, sorry. I may have sounded negative in my first post. I can fully
understand why someone would want to write a plugin, even if it is to help
them learn the plugin API or whatever. What I meant to ask was, what does
this plugin offer that the integrated junit stuff doesn't already offer - as
I want to use junit in my own projects? I agree that any plugin is useful
for people who find it useful.

A big plugin fan myself...

- scott

"Alexey Efimov" <aefimov@spklabs.com> wrote in message
news:agjie3$e5f$1@is.intellij.net...

Scott,
In this case guys from IntelliJ may resuse this plugin.
I think any plugin is usefull if it created by dewveloper even as for
himself.

>

"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in

my

next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but

it

does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>

>
>

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the UI
provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
and in the manner I want it.

If they would make the UI a plugin, it would be closer to my preference,
but would still be missing some key features I find useful. I wouldn't
expect them to do this work because I think they want out of the junit
integration (and other integrations such as SCM) so they can concentrate
on other things.

Key features I want that isn't currently provided by
IDEA JUnit functionality:
- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just that
one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).
- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it to
the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.

-- Rick


"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in my
next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but it
does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the UI
provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
and in the manner I want it.


I agree completely.

Please read my post from a separate thread "IDEA-integrated
test-runner plugin":

I think about a nice IDEA-integrated test-runner, that combines the
advantages of the console-based (no-XML-parser problems, clickable
stack-trace, no extra frame/dialog) and the Swing-based (red/green
bar, tree of test cases) test-runners.

Just thinking about this plugin -- but no time to implement it
myself...

Tom


On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:38:43 -0500, "Rick Vestal"
<rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote:

I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the UI
provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
and in the manner I want it.

If they would make the UI a plugin, it would be closer to my preference,
but would still be missing some key features I find useful. I wouldn't
expect them to do this work because I think they want out of the junit
integration (and other integrations such as SCM) so they can concentrate
on other things.

Key features I want that isn't currently provided by
IDEA JUnit functionality:
- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just that
one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).
- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it to
the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.

-- Rick


"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in my
next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but it
does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

cool, sounds really good. I shall be keeping my eye on it's development.

- scott

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agjnb0$igk$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the UI
provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
and in the manner I want it.

>

If they would make the UI a plugin, it would be closer to my preference,
but would still be missing some key features I find useful. I wouldn't
expect them to do this work because I think they want out of the junit
integration (and other integrations such as SCM) so they can concentrate
on other things.

>

Key features I want that isn't currently provided by
IDEA JUnit functionality:
- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just

that

one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).
- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it to
the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.

>

-- Rick

>
>

"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in

my

next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but

it

does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>

>
>

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

Hello Rick,

don't know, whether it's possible easily, but could you please put a
screenshot on the page, that one could get a clue on how it looks like
(I always take a look at screenshots when first-judging tools in the
internet).

Tom


On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:38:43 -0500, "Rick Vestal"
<rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote:

I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the UI
provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
and in the manner I want it.

If they would make the UI a plugin, it would be closer to my preference,
but would still be missing some key features I find useful. I wouldn't
expect them to do this work because I think they want out of the junit
integration (and other integrations such as SCM) so they can concentrate
on other things.

Key features I want that isn't currently provided by
IDEA JUnit functionality:
- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just that
one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).
- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it to
the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.

-- Rick


"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in my
next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but it
does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just

that

one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).


Ooops... these features are already implemented in the build #635. Looks
like we read thoughts of each other... :)

- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it to
the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.


Actually we are thinking about better test runner UI and so your ideas
should be helpful for us. Any additional suggestions are welcome.

--
Valentin Kipiatkov
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"


"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agjnb0$igk$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the UI
provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
and in the manner I want it.

>

If they would make the UI a plugin, it would be closer to my preference,
but would still be missing some key features I find useful. I wouldn't
expect them to do this work because I think they want out of the junit
integration (and other integrations such as SCM) so they can concentrate
on other things.

>

Key features I want that isn't currently provided by
IDEA JUnit functionality:
- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just

that

one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).
- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it to
the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.

>

-- Rick

>
>

"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How is
this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was this
plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in

my

next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but

it

does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

>
>

>
>

>
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

"Valentin Kipiatkov" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:agmmd8$1pn$1@is.intellij.net...

Actually we are thinking about better test runner UI and so your ideas
should be helpful for us. Any additional suggestions are welcome.


I have some. You've probably thought of most or all of these, but here they
are anyway:

1. Red/green bar in the toolbar or status bar so I can run the test quickly
and only have to see a window/frame if there are errors.

2. A window/frame with two panes like JUnit's Swing UI: one for errors and
one for stacktraces. The difference being that the stacktraces have
hyperlinks like they do if I run JUnit in text mode through IDEA.

3. Let the user define a pattern that tells IDEA which test class is
associated with which regular class. In our project, "MyGreatClass" has a
test called "_MyGreatClassTest" so the pattern would be something like
"_$CLASSNAME$Test". Then it would be possible to run the test for the
current file.

4. Let the user run tests for all currently opened files.

5. Let the user run all tests for classes that have been changed. (That
would include any class or test whose code has been edited recently and any
class or test that has recently been compiled (because of a dependency on a
class that has been edtied).)

6. Let the user re-run all tests that failed last time.



0
Comment actions Permalink

Excellent!

One of my major issues is what to do with stdout/stderr displayed
from the test. I'd like to see the ability to display the stdout/stderr
when you want it for a specific test. Besides that, it sounds like
you have covered most of my gripes. I'll probably come up with
more later :)

-- Rick

Valentin Kipiatkov wrote:

>> - I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
>> plugin can already do that).
>> - I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just

that

>> one method.
>> - I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
>> one
>> test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
>> plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).


Ooops... these features are already implemented in the build #635. Looks
like we read thoughts of each other... :)

>> - Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
>> - Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
>> running.
>> - I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it
>> to
>> the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.


Actually we are thinking about better test runner UI and so your ideas
should be helpful for us. Any additional suggestions are welcome.

--
Valentin Kipiatkov
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"


"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agjnb0$igk$1@is.intellij.net...

>> I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the UI
>> provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
>> to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
>> floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
>> with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
>> and in the manner I want it.
>>
>> If they would make the UI a plugin, it would be closer to my preference,
>> but would still be missing some key features I find useful. I wouldn't
>> expect them to do this work because I think they want out of the junit
>> integration (and other integrations such as SCM) so they can concentrate
>> on other things.
>>
>> Key features I want that isn't currently provided by
>> IDEA JUnit functionality:
>> - I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
>> plugin can already do that).
>> - I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just

that

>> one method.
>> - I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just that
>> one
>> test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
>> plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).
>> - Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
>> - Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
>> running.
>> - I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it
>> to
>> the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.
>>
>> -- Rick
>>
>>
>> "Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
>> news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...
>> > I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How
>> > is this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was
>> > this plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time
>> > making it
>> part
>> > of the IDE?
>> >
>> > The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in

my

>> > next project, so I am just a bit curious.
>> >
>> > thanks
>> > - scott
>> >
>> > "Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>> > news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...
>> > > http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin
>> > >
>> > > Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet, but

it

>> > > does work on some simple projects.
>> > >
>> > > Please comment here or send me mail.
>> > >
>> > > -- Rick
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>

0
Comment actions Permalink

1. Red/green bar in the toolbar or status bar so I can run the test

quickly

and only have to see a window/frame if there are errors.

double click would bring the junit panel

3. Let the user define a pattern that tells IDEA which test class is
associated with which regular class. In our project, "MyGreatClass" has a
test called "_MyGreatClassTest" so the pattern would be something like
"_$CLASSNAME$Test". Then it would be possible to run the test for the
current file.

The pattern need to support directory location as well. If my class under
test is c:/project/src/package/XX.java these at least would have to be
supported (that are the ones I encountered):
1) c:/project/src/package/XXTest.java
2) c:/project/src/package/test/XXTest.java
3) c:/project/test/package/XXTest.java

6. Let the user re-run all tests that failed last time.

+1

7. I would add to this already good list:
A way to navigate quickly between class under test and associated test. A
toggle would be ideal I think but I would settle for a Goto to Test and Goto
to Class under test. This would use the test/class under test naming pattern
association mentioned earlier.


0
Comment actions Permalink

1. Red/green bar in the toolbar or status bar so I can run the test

quickly

and only have to see a window/frame if there are errors.

double click would bring the junit panel

I didn't look in 635. I assumed that there was a Junit ToolWindow. It would
be great to have one just so we can have a full gui integration.



0
Comment actions Permalink


Actually we are thinking about better test runner UI and so your ideas
should be helpful for us. Any additional suggestions are welcome.


For the text runner, I'd like to have the option to display the results in a
different manner. For instance, instead of ...F...F..., I'd like to see:


org.mypackage.mytest.testMethod1...ok (0.11 sec)
org.mypackage.mytest.testMethod2...ok (0.13 sec)
org.mypackage.mytest.testMethod3...ok (2.31 sec)
org.mypackage.mytest.testMethod4...FAILED
<Assertion/Exception printout>
org.mypackage.anothertest.testMethod1...ok (0.43 sec)
etc



-- Rick

0
Comment actions Permalink


Rather than be too specific here's some general things I'd love to see:

1. Easily navigate and see all tests currently in a project.
2. Multiple select tests I wish to run.
3. See results gathered in a nice way (failure message, stacktrace and std
err and out per test)
4. Keep the last known test state displayed between runs (working, failed,
errored).


--
Glen Stampoultzis (TriNexus Pty Ltd)
Fixed:61 3 9753-6850 Mob:61 (0)402 835 458
ICQ: 62722370 EMail: glens@apache.org
URL's: http://jakarta.apache.org/poi, http://www.krysalis.org


"Valentin Kipiatkov" <valentin@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:agmmd8$1pn$1@is.intellij.net...

- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just

that

one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just

that

one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).

>

Ooops... these features are already implemented in the build #635. Looks
like we read thoughts of each other... :)

>

- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it

to

the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.

>

Actually we are thinking about better test runner UI and so your ideas
should be helpful for us. Any additional suggestions are welcome.

>

--
Valentin Kipiatkov
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

>
>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agjnb0$igk$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't find the JUnit UI provided by Intellij (which is basically the

UI

provided by JUnit with some integration features) particularly useful
to me. It is just my preference that I don't like external applications
floating around and prefer something more integrated. This leaves me
with the textui, which doesn't provide me with the information I want
and in the manner I want it.

>

If they would make the UI a plugin, it would be closer to my preference,
but would still be missing some key features I find useful. I wouldn't
expect them to do this work because I think they want out of the junit
integration (and other integrations such as SCM) so they can concentrate
on other things.

>

Key features I want that isn't currently provided by
IDEA JUnit functionality:
- I want to click on a project and execute all tests underneath it (my
plugin can already do that).
- I want to click on a method in the structure view and execute just

that

one method.
- I want to right click in a method in the editor and execute just

that

one
test method (my own custom runner can do that and I assume this
plugin will when the editor api is exposed (line # needed)).
- Capture stdout/stderr for optional display.
- Provide more feedback (than the textui) on which test is currently
running.
- I'm sure there are other reasons as well...which is why I posted it

to

the wiki site while it doesn't have that much functionality.

>

-- Rick

>
>

"Scott Curtis" <scurtis@smart421.com> wrote in message
news:agje3j$ahr$1@is.intellij.net...

I don't use JUnit very much, so this may be a redundant question. How

is

this different from the integrated JUnit stuff in the IDE? Why was

this

plugin necessary if the Intellij guys have already spent time making

it

part

of the IDE?

>

The main reason I ask is because I am going to be using JUnit a lot in

my

next project, so I am just a bit curious.

>

thanks
- scott

>

"Rick Vestal" <rvestal@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:agiuin$2mh$1@is.intellij.net...

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JUnitPlugin

>

Don't get too excited...it isn't very functional or polished yet,

but

it

does work on some simple projects.

>

Please comment here or send me mail.

>

-- Rick

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