Numbered Bookmarks gone in 90.94 Follow
What happened to the numbered bookmarks feature in 90.94?
I really miss this.
The un-numbered ones are nice but just can't compare with the speed of being able to instantly navigate to a few locations with just a single (well control-<number>) key press.
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+1 for keeping the numbered bookmarks.
+1 from me too, I usually have about 3-4 of them in use at any given time
and am getting quite frustrated with their disappearance in 90.94. Hopefully
it's just a bug rather than a deliberate change.
SI> +1 for keeping the numbered bookmarks.
SI> Original message URL:
I would have to assume it's a bug. Usage of numbered bookmarks still shows in the help guide. So that's a potential indication that it's a bug rather then them being removed.
I've opened an issue for this in YouTrack: http://youtrack.jetbrains.net/issue/IDEA-25233
Ouch, I hope it's a bug - can't lose one of the best productivity features for large projects
Digging through recent git commits I found that numbered bookmarks support simply got removed, see issue for exact point.
Could you please explain a little bit more about how you use numbered bookmarks?
How many of them do you have? Do you remember them between sessions, or do
you rely on them being preserved between editing sessions? How often do you
miss a bookmark (press one Ctrl-number and then find out that you hit the
wrong bookmark and need to try a different number)?
We'll most likely restore the functionality in some way (at least as a downloadable
plugin), but we need to understand the use cases better and see if we can
improve upon the functionality that we had before.
"Develop with Pleasure!"
A lot of the time I don't use numbered bookmarks, but when I'm debugging
and/or working on a complex change I'll often end up setting up to 5 or 6
numbered bookmarks, and I'll use them until I start work on something else.
As I set each bookmark I make a mental note of it's number so I can jump
around the various important locations as I work on the problem at hand.
I probably do this 3-4 times a week, maybe more.
I leave IDEA running 24-7 (barring crashes/required restarts/new build installs),
but 95% of the time the numbered bookmarks are only useful to me during the
time I'm working on the particular problem/feature/task at hand. Once I start
a new 'session', the usefulness of the bookmarks I've set generally evaporates
(though sometimes I need to switch back to the previous session, and if the
bookmarks are still there I'm quite grateful). In a given session I always
start with bookmark #1 and work my way up (thus overwriting old bookmarks
from previous sessions without having to explictly delete them). Rarely,
I'll have a bookmark that I want to keep for a period of several days or
longer - with these ones I tend to start at #9 and work my way down so they
don't get overwritten as I set other low-numbered bookmarks.
As for hitting the wrong bookmark, this happens sometimes but not too often
(I guess because I'm just using them in my current editing session so the
relevance of each number stays pretty fresh in my mind). Even if I do happen
to get it wrong, I always know what range the bookmarks I care about fall
in to, eg 1 through 4, so I'll always get the one I want very quickly.
I've been using these since the feature first appeared (and in fact Borland
Delphi had a similar feature back in the day, I used them heavily there too
and was very pleased when they came to IDEA!). I didn't have any complaints
with the existing implementation but any improvements you might come up with
would of course be welcome. Most importantly though, I'm just glad to hear
you're revising your decision to get rid of them :)
DJ> Hello Dick,
>> What happened to the numbered bookmarks feature in 90.94?
>> I really miss this.
>> The un-numbered ones are nice but just can't compare with the speed
>> of being able to instantly navigate to a few locations with just a
>> single (well control- before.
Mostly I use one to two of them at a time. Usually 0 and 9, that way setting them is easy on my keyboard, is easy, left hand does the ctrl or ctrl+shift and right hand is already near the high numbers.
The main thing about the numbered bookmarks is they are so very simple that they become automatic, with them gone, I was amazed how automatic my use of them was. I would set one, say ctrl-shift-0, Then be surprised, and disappointed, when ctrl-0 did nothing.
Generally this is used where some fairly parallel editing tasks are going on. For example editing a jsp/jstl file and looking at a java class that is being referred to in the jsp. Another example is where working on two very similar, but unrelated (not like extends/implements where you're already can one-click between them) files.
For me usually the 0 bookmark is the primary one, and 9 is a secondary one; occasionally I'll do a tertiary bookmark, usually 8. But while remembering two is very automatic for me remembering more than two or three, isn't worth it.
Sometimes I'll use a second pair, like 1 and 2; but that only happens when I, mentally, push the stuff I doing at 0 & 9 onto my mind's stack then do something where I need another pair of locations, then return (mental pop) to the 0 & 9 area. Very rarely would I ever remember the 1 & 2 pair once I've returned to the 0 & 9 area.
Once the numbered bookmarks went away, I tried using the other bookmarks F11, Shift-F11. Having to navigate the list becomes very distracting; I just need to get between a few places without any distraction (the list is a big distraction as it required you to evaluate all the stuff in the list. I did bind ctrl-[ and ctrl-] to navigate the bookmarks which helped some, but still you have to remember to delete ones or the list just gets two big.
On the bright side, I never really used the F11 bookmarks before; playing with them made me realize there are some cases where I'd find them useful; but not as a replacement for the numbered nifties.
Thanks for listening.
I, too, have used numbered bookmarks and I am missing them.
For me they were a more lightweight replacement of "Favorites" (which I never used).
Usually when I am working on some not-so-trivial feature there are a couple (maybe two to five) pices of code that I want to be able to quickly navigate too.
That was very fast and simple with numbered bookmarks. Even if I sometimes accidentally navigated to bookmark 2 when I meant bookmark 3, that was simply a single additional keystroke:
- Press Ctrl
- Press 1 - notice that it's not the place I wanted to jump to
- Press 2 - ah, there it is
In contrast I am using the "not-numbered" bookmarks mostly while working in a single file and quickly delete them again.
Using the favorites view it is simply too clumsy
- to open the view quickly
- to add a file
- to navigate to a file
I also don't like the fact that it is docked into the project toolwindow (likewise I never use the "docked" version of the file structure view, but always the popup).
Maybe the new bookmarks view can be morphed into someting that supports my use case (currently (#IU-90.113) it seems to be a little broking, for example the only toolbutton that works in the popup is "Edit Description").
Maybe somehow add a shortcut feature to the bookmark popup:
- when the popup opens, place the focus on "Bookmark this place" and let me use Alt- plus any digit (or char?) to assign the current place to one of these shortcuts.
The gray area on the right could well have some _short_ text explaining this feature)
- show the assigned shortcut digit to the left of each item, and directly navigate to them when the shortcut is pressed
Old "Ctrl-Shift-1" would be "Alt-F11, Alt-1" (where you don't even need to press Alt twice, but could use Alt-F11-1")
Old "Ctrl-1" would be "Alt-F11, 1"
Also the separate "Edit description" dialog is too much - that should be integrated into the bookmarks popup itself (below the preview?)
(I think that I first got used to numbered bookmarks in Multi-Edit, but it's been so long ago)
I don't use numbered bookmarks all the time, but there are cases where I have to investigate, debug or refactor a complex issue, and I need to move quickly between several locations in the code. This is just a matter of convenience: instead of finding the location in the bookmarks list every time, I jump straight to it. If I press the wrong number key -- no big deal, switching is still much faster than browsing the list.
Most of the time, the set of numbered bookmarks is linked to a particular task, and I want it to be persisted between sessions. Ideally, it would be a part of (or integrated with) the task management plugin.
Typically using 2 to 5 numbered bookmarks. They are always ad-hoc, scoped to the current *task*. Not sure if you actually would want to bind them to a task framework, as they are even more volatile than tasks (it makes some sense, but tasks are only in UE, which means CE won't get numbered bookmarks, bad outcome).
There's little value in persisting NB through IDEA restarts, although if you save them somewhere in the project config, probably it comes in automatically already.
In contrast, I use F11 bookmark extremely rarely, mainly due to the hassle of pop up dialogs, and complexity of navigating through bookmarks I want when e.g. there's a dozen others in the list.
>Could you please explain a little bit more about how you use numbered bookmarks?
I use them very similarly to how the others (Chris, Sergei, Dick,Stephen, Andrew) have described. Because of odd requirements around switching off PCs over weekends in banks, I would probably be keener on having the bookmarks persisted between sessions than the others who have mostly said that that would be unimportant.
>How many of them do you have?
I only use them when working on particular problems. Then, up to 7 or 8 in a very complex debugging situation or similar. Usually just a 2 - 4 when I don't want to keep repeating navigations or searches, the points are not "nearby" in that sense, and the amount of moving around that I'm doing means that using back/forward will soon fail me.
>Do you remember them between sessions, or do rely on them being preserved between editing sessions?
It would be annoying to have them disappear just because I closed IDEA and opened it, for, say, a plug-in installation. Or a weekend.
>How often do you miss a bookmark (press one Ctrl-number and then find out that you hit the wrong bookmark and need to try a different number)?
It's not a problem. I miss them a lot now that the entire feature is missing though.
>We'll most likely restore the functionality in some way (at least as a downloadable plugin), but we need to understand the use cases better and see if we can improve upon the functionality that we had before.
I don't see any need to improve on it, but taking it out would seem to be a crying shame, why would you do that? Was it causing some sort of problem?
PS (1) Unnumbered (F11) bookmarks don't even compare.
(2) I don't use Tasks (changelists) much, but if I got into that, then associating sets of bookmarks with those might be very handy. In fact, I have sometimes returned to a problem after a couple of weeks and had to find the crucial bits of over again. If tasks were associated with sets of bookmarks I would probably use tasks more, because then it would be worth creating tasks for Jira issues, returning to the jira I could just select the task, close all editor windows, and then press ctrl-shift-1,2,3,4,5 to get the key code locations up. I already use them in this way in preference to "pinning" tabs. When things get too messy I just hold down Ctrl-F4 and then open up the key locations again.
UPDATE: I've started using change lists a bit and realised that part of what I wrote in (2) doesn't make sense: when changing to a different change-list, the set of open windows is swapped out anyway. Still like the idea of having bookmarks associated with changeLists though.
Improve it if you will, but please don't take it out.
Like others have stated, I use numbered bookmarks heavily during debugging and refactoring sessions. I also find them enormously helpful when tracing through unfamiliar code. I can leave a numerical trail of the sequence of the method calls. This way I can easily backtrack without having to start at the beginning again.
Lastly, I frequently use the 0 bookmark as a placeholder for a pice of code, such as a configuration file or a configuration map, that I need to jump back to frequently too add the next "item" I will be working on. For example, right now I am working on a Flex project that use Cairngorm. I did have the spot where I need to to add command-to-event mappings bookmarked as 0. Now without that, I have to use other methods to get to it. Simply typing ctrl+0, making my change, then hitting ctrl+backspace is so much quicker than using ctrl+tab or something similar. I carry this paradigm even further when doing some coding where you need to jump back and forth between 3 or 4 places in the code.
While I would like to see numerical bookmarks retained, another feature I would like to see would be "Lettered" bookmarks. Remembering a letter association -- such as 'C' for config, 'M' for map or 'I" for init -- is sometimes easier than a number; especially when working across coding sessions. The user could hit a key sequence that would put them in "Add a lettered bookmark" mode. Then the next letter they type results in the bookmark being placed. Another sequence would put you into a "go to lettered bookmark" mode, similar to the "go to line" action. While it would then be two key sequence to go to the bookmark, it is still far easier than some of the other methods.
On top of that, having the ability to easily convert a standard bookmark to a either a lettered bookmark or a numbered book mark would be useful. Currently (or at least in IDEA 8) you need to go to the standard bookmark, toggle it, then set the numerical one. And if you had altered the description of the bookmark in the show bookmarks view, that is lost. Personally I think setting a numbered bookmark, and lettered bookmark if they were added, should take precedence. So if a standard bookmark is already set, it is "converted" when trying to set a numbered (or lettered) bookmark at the same location.
To answer some of your other questions:
I routinely have 1 or 2 set, but often 3 or 4. And there are occassions, such as debugging sessions, I use all 10.
I will occassional "hit" the wrong one, but not too often since I either use 1 or 2 for long term periods (easy to rmember), or a handful for the short term (easy to retain in short term memory). Having something like the lettered bookmarks I suggested would proabaly result in me using more of them long term (i.e. across coding sessions) since they would be easier to remember and associate.
I am not really bothered, as I'll need the UE anyway
But this is a fair point and I anticipated that someone would come up with it. Ideally the bookmarking functionality would co-operate with tasks framework, if present, and have a project-wide scope otherwise (equivalent to reusing a single task).
Just why was the numbered bookmarks feature removed?
BTW Having them back as a plugin would be ok with me.
On 26/10/2009 11:28, Dmitry Jemerov wrote:
One usage that I don't think people have touched on is that having
numbered bookmarks is useful when recording complex macros - it's good
to be able to mark a cursor location to return to during execution.
I also vote to have number bookmarks restored in 9, and preferably not as a plugin but built right in. Often when working in Java, there are changes being made to 2, 3 or even more places in the source code at the same time, and it is nice to flip between these directly by number.
Thanks everyone who replied for your usecases, this really helped to understand what numbered bookmarks are needed for and restore re-implement them.
Since 90.137 there's Ctrl+F11 (Command+F11 on macs) shortcut for Toggle Mnemonic Bookmark action, which suggests to choose a mnemonic for a bookmark, which later can be used in F11 bookmark browser for immediate navigation.
Ctrl+F11, 1 set's up "number one" bookmark
Shift+F11, 1 navigates there
Dmitry, the correct second shortcut is Shift F11, not F11.
Thanks for listening, appreciate that. However, I tried these keymaps, and, frankly, they are terrible. After setting couple numbered bookmarks you get really confused in those 2-keystroke shortcuts a la eclipse (ugh!). Reading all responses in the thread in issue, it's clear that having up to 10 bookmarks is more than enough, mapping literals can be nice, but not critical. And new popup windows just get in a way. Any chance old Ctrl-(0-9) keys can be brought back as default mappings?
> Dmitry, the correct second shortcut is Shift F11, not F11.
I'm Maxim. Thanks, corrected.
> However, I tried these keymaps, and, frankly, they are terrible. After setting couple numbered bookmarks you get really confused in those 2-keystroke shortcuts
You're really fast to be confused. I usually need at least three repetitions to start feeling a confusion. Sarcasm aside, new way of doing things and especially new shortcuts are hard to get used to and this is understandable but you'd better try actually using new stuff before calling it "terrible".
> Any chance old Ctrl-(0-9) keys can be brought back as default mappings?
No, unless there's thoughtful motivation why this is necessary.
Sorry about the name, looked in the wrong spot in the message (in response to)
The motivation for 'disliking' new keymap is really simple and consistent. IDEA always boasted (rightfully so) very thought-out shortcuts, which empowered natural and fast development flow (dev with pleasure anyone?). Having *no* 2-stroke combinations was key to this.
Now, not only there are more complex shortcuts for this feature, but it actually replaced an older (and very nice) combination. More dialogs to deal with along the way just slow down and distract unnecessarily. I understand the effort put into for new bookmarks (and I like it), but I'm talking about a smooth flow, where those dialogs are redundant. Can't we have Ctrl-(0-9) mapped back? It doesn't mean current ones have to be removed, it will be complementary - jump to a numbered shortcut *without* any dialogs, I think I saw such actions in IDEA sources. I just checked and it wasn't taken by anything.
I really like the new "Mnemonic Bookmark" feature. I especially like the "map" that comes up showing which are in use. Makes it easier to remember what you have and have not used yet. Thanks Maxim for the efforts on implementing it! (Of course I personally am especially happy with it since it is a nicely refined implementation of the idea I had suggested above.)
At the same time, I would agree with Andrew that having the quickness of a single keystroke combination to jump between numbered bookmarks is very useful in certain situation. To me, the perfect world would exist if this new"Mnemonic Bookmark" feature were combined with the ability to still navigate to any numbered bookmarks via ctrl+# like it use to be. Setting the bookmarks, including numbered bookmarks, could be done in the via the new methodology with the key map. Given that setting a bookmark occurs less frequently than navigating between them, I think that works. Plus I use to sometimes forget which number I had last used when using the numbered bookmarks, so the map would help with that.But again, there are times having the quickness to jump between two or three code points via ctrl+# is very useful.
When I use the bookmarks I'm usually at my most focussed phase. There is no other keyboard combination I know of in IDEA that requires a double-sequence. Why are you giving me a double sequence when I want to concentrate on the code ? I usually use bookmarks because I'm at or near the limits of my mental capacity, so while there are a number of other things I can delegate to arcane keyboard sequences, this is no 1 keyboard combination for me when I'm thinking hard. I never use F1-F10 unshifted in idea. If you need to move bookmarks to some other key combination you could move them to unshifted F1-F10
There was a lot of usage of those keys you didn't anticipate initially. But it doesn't seem like you're putting anything else on the keys you "freed" as of yet, so why can't they just be restored ?
(And yes, I've been practicing the new shortcuts all day but they're nowhere near as good as the old ones)
I'm afraid I agree with Andrew. I can understand the motivation to want to
unify the bookmark handling around the F11 key and recover the 20 keycombos
used by the numbered bookmarks, however I consider the new approach to be
a definite step backwards in usability over the original. Here's my reasoning:
1) There are now two popup dialogs where previously there were none. The
dialogs, especially the SHIFT+F11 dialog, are very disruptive. Neither dialog
provides any significant benefit to me (given the way I described my use
of numbered popups, I mentally keep track of the 3-4 bookmarks I'm currently
using anyway so the dialogs don't tell me anything I aren't already fairly
2) I've been trying to get used to them but the CTRLF11 and SHIFTF11 combos
followed by a digit/letter still feel pretty awkward for typing. Of course
I could remap them, but (other than quicklists) I've always found IDEA's
shortcuts to be pretty intuitive and haven't felt the need to remap any until
now. And remapping brings its own problems in a team environment (yes I'm
aware of CTRL+` which BTW is a great feature!).
3) The number of keystrokes required has doubled over the previous implementation.
Overall, the old approach felt much more intuitive than the new and I'd be
rather sad to see this change make it in to 9.0. I'd settle for a plugin
that restored the old functionality. It's still not clear to me why you want
to make the change though. Have you earmarked the keyboard shortcuts for
something else perhaps?
AP> Sorry about the name, looked in the wrong spot in the message (in
AP> response to)
AP> The motivation for 'disliking' new keymap is really simple and
AP> consistent. IDEA always boasted (rightfully so) very thought-out
AP> shortcuts, which empowered natural and fast development flow (dev
AP> with pleasure anyone?). Having no 2-stroke combinations was key to
AP> Now, not only there are more complex shortcuts for this feature, but
AP> it actually replaced an older (and very nice) combination. More
AP> dialogs to deal with along the way just slow down and distract
AP> unnecessarily. I understand the effort put into for new bookmarks
AP> (and I like it), but I'm talking about a smooth flow, where those
AP> dialogs are redundant. Can't we have Ctrl-(0-9) mapped back? It
AP> doesn't mean current ones have to be removed, it will be
AP> complementary - jump to a numbered shortcut without any dialogs, I
AP> think I saw such actions in IDEA sources. I just checked and it
AP> wasn't taken by anything.
AP> Original message URL:
I have tried and tried to make the new shortcuts stick. But in addition to being
inferior to the original, they shortcuts also feel inconsistent according
to my idea mental-model:
In my mental model the combo to *set* a bookmark should be ctrl+shift+f11
and go to bookmark should be ctrl+f11. I find myself consistently pressing those
(And I do not remap keys, we do rotating pair programming on different computers)
I rely on numbered bookmarks quite heavily actually and having them persistent across restarts was quite valuable as well. Perhaps with the new task feature having them persisted with that information could be an alternative.
I really though it was a bug when I wasn't able to use them with 90.162.
I use both the non-numbered and numbered bookmarks feature, and I'd like to see:
- have bookmarks integrated into settings screen (change shortcuts, colors, etc)
- be able to have the bookmark browser as a panel, not a popup dialog
I agree totally with Chris and Andrew. You should try pressing F11 (or Shift+F11) on a Mac. It hides all the windows!! (or with Shift+F11, it does the same...but then slowly!). I was to busy complaining about the project structure, but to 'just remove it because we don't know why people use it', and then, after people explained how they use it, implement something which is not usable by people who explained how they use it.... that realy defeats the purpose of giving feedback, does it?
Jetbrains, you might not be aware of it, but a lot (most?) of your users are keyboard users. If I wanted to click around in my IDE, I would have chosen Eclipse. I haven't, nor has anyone in this thread. Using only a single had/keystroke is extremely powerful, and having an extra dialog in between really breaks concentration, and requires you to think about your IDE, besides your Hibernate Distributed 2nd Level Cache Out of Memory problems...Not really what most people want, I guess.
Btw, like stated before, remapping shortcuts is really frustrating when pairing with people, just like switching mouse buttons or something. Or a Dvorak keyboard. In other words: that's really not an option.
I use numbered bookmarks all the time, every feature involves jumping back and forth between several methods across multiple files, so at any given moment I have around 5 numbered bookmarks which I find no problem to keep in mind. This is the most effective navigation method of Intellij and it is a big misfortune to have it gone. I tried 9.0 but backtracked due to the lack of this feature (although the background indexing feature is a great improvement).
I agree, and I still don't understand why Jetbrains removed the fast tagging
of bookmarks - as far as I can see there was no explanation given as to why
the functionality was changed. I've been trying to get used to the new approach
but still find it quite awkward compared to the old method and it definitely
feels like a regression.
S> I use numbered bookmarks all the time, every feature involves jumping
S> back and forth between several methods across multiple files, so at
S> any given moment I have around 5 numbered bookmarks which I find no
S> problem to keep in mind. This is the most effective navigation method
S> of Intellij and it is a big misfortune to have it gone. I tried 9.0
S> but backtracked due to the lack of this feature (although the
S> background indexing feature is a great improvement).
S> Original message URL: