RC status and feature list discordance?

Hi,

I don't want to play the devil's advocate here but:

how does the RC status of #3415 and the partially implemented feature
list from http://www.intellij.net/eap/products/idea/irida.jsp fit together?

RC would mean - no more relevant features, only bug fixes, so please,
enlighten my unconsciousness in this matter.

Thanks in advance,

Ahmed.

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As you can see, the status on the page you mention is greatly outdated.

Eugene.

"Ahmed Mohombe" <amohombe@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbikvo$546$1@is.intellij.net...

Hi,

>

I don't want to play the devil's advocate here but:

>

how does the RC status of #3415 and the partially implemented feature
list from http://www.intellij.net/eap/products/idea/irida.jsp fit
together?

>

RC would mean - no more relevant features, only bug fixes, so please,
enlighten my unconsciousness in this matter.

>

Thanks in advance,

>

Ahmed.



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I'm sure this'll turn into a 'everyone wihne about their showstopper bugs' thread, so I'll get mine in early in the hope that it's noticed.

Why oh why oh why isn't the frame activation per module bug fixed? The idea window does the focus dance once per module, which results in the whole thing flickering on and off madly during startup. This looks absolutely awful and plays havoc with focus, so you just have to sit there and wait for it to figure stuff out. It's the most annoying new bug in 4.5, and is still there in 5.0

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While we certainly understand this is highly annoying fixing that particular
requires serious architectural (threading model actually) changes so we certainly
won't be capable to do that in 5.0.

-


Maxim Shafirov
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"


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Now that we're getting so close to final release, my worst fears are starting to come true. Irida will be out, and I'll need to buy a new license. Any words about license discounts, promotions, give ups to people whose names starts with 'M' (and ends in 'arcus'), or anything like that?

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Marcus Brito wrote:

Any words about license discounts, promotions, give ups to people whose names starts with 'M' (and ends in 'arcus'), or anything like that?


In fact, we do have such a promotion, but unfortunately you don't
qualify, since your name ends in 'rito'. Marcus Barcus is our lucky
winner this year. ;)

I don't know your situation license-wise, but if you bought a license
after May 1, 2005, the upgrade to 5.0 is free. Otherwise, upgrades are
40% off (probably $299 assuming 5.0 keeps the price at $499). Otherwise,
there's a possibility of a Personal license at some unspecified time in
the future. Otherwise, free open-source licenses, or cheap academic
licenses.

Otherwise, you can just pay up or something. :) (If you want to avoid
upgrade anxiety in the future, you can get the maintenance plan for $450
for 2 full upgrades, up to 7.x, for a grand total of $225 per upgrade.
Amortized over the likely 4ish years to get to 8.0, that's like 65 cents
per day. Less than a cup of coffee, as they say.)

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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I don't know your situation license-wise, but if you bought a license
after May 1, 2005, the upgrade to 5.0 is free. Otherwise, upgrades are
40% off (probably $299 assuming 5.0 keeps the price at $499). Otherwise,
there's a possibility of a Personal license at some unspecified time in
the future. Otherwise, free open-source licenses, or cheap academic
licenses.

Otherwise, you can just pay up or something. :) (If you want to avoid
upgrade anxiety in the future, you can get the maintenance plan for $450
for 2 full upgrades, up to 7.x, for a grand total of $225 per upgrade.
Amortized over the likely 4ish years to get to 8.0, that's like 65 cents
per day. Less than a cup of coffee, as they say.)

Maybe you should offer something like Apple does:
"Apple Credit Account - payments as low as $xx per month" - take a look
in their online shop.

Having to pay only ~ 20$ per month would attract much more programmers
(many of them spend more on IT books :) ).

Ahmed.


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Ahmed Mohombe wrote:

Maybe you should offer something like Apple does:
"Apple Credit Account - payments as low as $xx per month" - take a look
in their online shop.

Having to pay only ~ 20$ per month would attract much more programmers
(many of them spend more on IT books :) ).


It could work, possibly, but would require drastic changes to the
licensing code in IDEA, to support some form of time-based license
updating, or some other mechanism.

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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>> Maybe you should offer something like Apple does:
>> "Apple Credit Account - payments as low as $xx per month" - take a
>> look in their online shop.
>>
>> Having to pay only ~ 20$ per month would attract much more programmers
>> (many of them spend more on IT books :) ).


It could work, possibly, but would require drastic changes to the
licensing code in IDEA, to support some form of time-based license
updating, or some other mechanism.

No, it's not what I mean, and it's not what Apple Credi Accound it looks
like. It's an "installment plan", so that the user instead of paying the
entire amount at once, has the chance to pay it thru' several
months(usually over a year).

Ahmed.


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No, it's not what I mean, and it's not what Apple
Credi Accound it looks
like. It's an "installment plan", so that the user
instead of paying the
entire amount at once, has the chance to pay it thru'
several
months(usually over a year).

Ahmed.


JetBrains do a very good job of creating software. I hope they don't decide to become a credit broker. Your bank might be able to give you a loan if you're stuck, or (given that the EAP has been on the go for a long time) try anticipating and saving up. :)

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>>No, it's not what I mean, and it's not what Apple
>>Credi Accound it looks
>>like. It's an "installment plan", so that the user
>>instead of paying the
>>entire amount at once, has the chance to pay it thru'
>>several
>>months(usually over a year).
>>


JetBrains do a very good job of creating software.
I hope they don't decide to become a credit broker.

Nor does Apple.
My point was that they enable their onlineshop the same way Apple did
:). Besides, AFAIK there are lots of companies that offer this, and
customers like this - consider that you need to buy licenses for an
entire team :).

Ahmed.

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There's a possibility of a Personal license at some
unspecified time in the future. Otherwise, free
open-source licenses, or cheap academic licenses.


Twiddle thumbs hopefully expecting that personal licenses will be available by the time Irida is out, or 30 days after that at most.

I've switched companies a few months ago, which means I won't be able to use the old company's license; claiming an Open Source license for my work on Retroweaver Plugin would be streching things a little too far, and unfortunately I'm out of academia for some time now. I guess my only options left are buying a full commercial license, or wait till a personal one is available.

Oh well, better start saving, anyways :)

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Marcus Brito wrote:

Twiddle thumbs hopefully expecting that personal licenses will be available by the time Irida is out, or 30 days after that at most.


Not likely.

I've switched companies a few months ago


Can't get the new company to spring for it? Increasing your productivity
increases their productivity.

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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Can't get the new company to spring for it?
Increasing your productivity
increases their productivity.


Where I'm working as a subcontractor (and it's not the first case), management have been accustomed to WSAD and Websphere (mainly Portal Server) integration for so long, they're totally scared of changing, and usually argue that IDEA lacks Websphere integration.

It's also somewhat difficult to put across the advantages of IDEA, because on a feature-by-feature checklist, Eclipse and Netbeans have really caught up on the killer features. Just saying "it's more productive" or "each feature is implemented better" isn't sufficiently persuasive for them (I'm convinced, but I'm not the purchaser in this context...).

Given these constraints, what's the best way to convince someone to switch..?

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Christopher Brown wrote:

It's also somewhat difficult to put across the advantages of IDEA, because on a feature-by-feature checklist, Eclipse and Netbeans have really caught up on the killer features. Just saying "it's more productive" or "each feature is implemented better" isn't sufficiently persuasive for them (I'm convinced, but I'm not the purchaser in this context...).

Given these constraints, what's the best way to convince someone to switch..?


In your opinion, would live video demos (screencasts) be persuasive in
this situation? We are planning to develop some after the 5.0 release.

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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Yes, I think they would. They need to be concise (the attention span of sceptical people is limited in my experience), and have multiple "wow!" factor moments, to maintain interest. Basic stuff should be kept in an "introductory" screen cast, so as people who've already used competing products can dive right in to "killer" features.

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Can't get the new company to spring for it?
Increasing your productivity
increases their productivity.


I'm trying to do that, but buying anything here is tricky. First, I need to convince my management that IDEA really is more productive, and worth the investment -- that's the easy part. After that, the buying will go thru a "purchases comitee", which will go after suppliers, quotes, bla bla bla... to finally set the budget needed for the purchase. After that, the budget will go thru upper management, to be approved, and then... oh well, you probably got the idea. If I start the process now, we should have the licenses early next year, and I'm being optimistic.

There's a true tale around here about how one of our bathrooms stood without light bulbs for weeks... because they couldn't just buy new ones in able time. And oh, "a few weeks" because we replaced the bathroom bulbs with some we took from the corridors when security wasn't watching. The actual, new bulbs were bought almost 3 months later...

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Anything flashy and colorful, directed at managers and not at programmers would be really, really nice. It would be great if it was freely distributable, so we (non-JetBrainers) could download it and use for an internal product demonstration -- something to turn every IDEA user into a JetBrains salesman ;)

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Something like that could be easily integrated into IDEA using Jemmy
(jemmy.netbeans.org).

Tom

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Something like that could be easily integrated into IDEA using Jemmy
(jemmy.netbeans.org).

Jetbrains also used Marthon for Fabrique (it looks better and easier to
use than Jemmy):
http://sourceforge.net/projects/marathonman

Of course, the problem is that someone would need to preare all these
demos, cause even the promissed "Fash Animations" still resume themselfs
to a simple HelloWorld :).

Ahmed.

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Maraton uses Python code for the scripts, with Jemmy you can use plain
Java for it (and the powerful refactorings in IDEA). Of course somebody
needs to program them, but I'm sure it is easier than getting a larger
screen recording session, esp. when IDEA changes over time.

Tom

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Thomas Singer (MoTJ) wrote:

Maraton uses Python code for the scripts, with Jemmy you can use plain
Java for it (and the powerful refactorings in IDEA).

Scripts are not really ment to be hand-edited. I mean you can, but why?
The idea is to use the recorder and there's no faster
programmer/language that allows you to make what the recorder does.
Of course Rational Robot's recorder "object discovery" is better, but
Marathon is free :).
Such tools are ment for non-programmers, so no refactorings(cause they
don't even know what that is :) ).

Ahmed.

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The idea is to use the recorder


I never want to use a recorder, because then you cannot read the script.

We are developing (beside our Smart-series) a geodetic cadastrial
application. If the user enters "435672", the recorder only can put
these characters in the script (we uses WinTask for our old C
application which had a recorder). But what does these characters mean
when reading and editing the script (yes, scripts need to be edited
later because the application changes)?

pkzField.setPkz("435672");

or

coordinateEditor.setRechts(435672.0);

are MUCH better readable - at least for us.

Such tools are ment for non-programmers


Why that? We are developers and we want to use our programming
language to program. Of course you are a little bit right, in some
companies writing scripts is done by non-developers, but a) these are
larger companies (small companies don't have the capabilities to employ
testers) and b) you are much more flexible when you have a real
programming language than a plain series of characters/mouse clicks.

Tom

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I never want to use a recorder, because then you cannot read the script.

You don't have to read the scripts. The idea is very simple:
1. start the recorder
2. play around with whatever you would want to be
'reproduced'/'retested'/'re..', or what's in your acceptance test.
3. stop recorder and save 'record'
4. enjoy the 'film' or send it to others to enjoy it :).

Why that? We are developers and we want to use our programming
language to program.

Nope. Programmers do unit testing, and testers do acceptance tests -
this is what recorders are made for.

Of course you are a little bit right, in some
companies writing scripts is done by non-developers, but a) these are
larger companies (small companies don't have the capabilities to employ
testers) and b) you are much more flexible when you have a real
programming language than a plain series of characters/mouse clicks.

I do not agree. Programmers are very expansive compared to testers and a
lot of small companies use students or other 'unqualified' personal for
this job. Besides, lot of these 'acceptance tests' are
made/maintained/required by the customer directly - who does not have
always programmers at hand. Lot of these tools/recorders also have flash
or AVI output(in parallel to the scripts). Professional tools do not
only record scripts, but also have 'object property' discovery, so that
UI values can be checked against the acceptance test values.

Ahmed.

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Amazing.

It looks as if the human resource cost of looking at the order, is greater than the license itself ... :(

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Rayz wrote:

Amazing.

It looks as if the human resource cost of looking at the order, is greater than the license itself ... :(


All in the name of 'cost reduction'. Cubicles are another good example.
The cubicle has to be the worst possible working environment for
programming. In my mind, there are two possible productive environments:
1) Closed offices with max two people per office, so that you can have
the silence necessary to get deep into 'flow' and be individually very
productive. 2) Open rooms with only team members in the room, so that
you can communicate fluidly face-to-face and be very productive as a
team. Cubicles are the worst of both worlds. Not only do they eliminate
the benefits of face-to-face communication, but they also eliminate the
benefits of silence and flow, so you end up unproductive both
individually and as a team. But at least the company is 'saving money'
by optimizing the freaking floor plan. (You can tell I used to work at
one of these places.)

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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I hear you, I hear you... luckily they got it better here. While my workplace still looks like a cube, it's quite large, and fits four people in it (each one facing a corner). Since my team is composed of exactly four people, I just have to turn my back to see everyone. Not perfect, but better than the standard "cubicle" I'm used to see on movies and the like.

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All in the name of 'cost reduction'. Cubicles are another good example.
The cubicle has to be the worst possible working environment for
programming. In my mind, there are two possible productive environments:
1) Closed offices with max two people per office, so that you can have
the silence necessary to get deep into 'flow' and be individually very
productive. 2) Open rooms with only team members in the room, so that
you can communicate fluidly face-to-face and be very productive as a
team. Cubicles are the worst of both worlds. Not only do they eliminate
the benefits of face-to-face communication, but they also eliminate the
benefits of silence and flow, so you end up unproductive both
individually and as a team. But at least the company is 'saving money'
by optimizing the freaking floor plan. (You can tell I used to work at one of these places.)

>

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"



In his book "Code Complete" 2n Edition, Steve McConnell quotes some studies on this:

"Large software-intensive organizations have had similar experiences. Xerox, TRW, IBM, and Bell Labs have indicated that they realize significantly improved productivity with a $10,000 to $30,000 capital investment per person, sums that were more than recaptured in improved productivity (Boehm 1987a). With "productivity offices," self-reported estimates ranged from 39 to 47 percent improvement in productivity (Boehm et al. 1984)."

I work at (as a contractor) one of the mentioned companies. My work space: a cube in the middle of a 250-cube cube-farm in converted manufacturing space. Talk about a productivity killer... Apparently they don't believe their own studies/history.


Also, like others have mentioned above, I too use a Personal License. Since we have vi/notepad and javac available, an IDE is a luxury item. You can cite productivity studies until you are blue in the face; management doesn't want to hear it... If they do, they ask about free open source IDEs. They simply do not want to spend the money right now.

-Mark

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As a contractor I work all over the city I live in. Most companies do not want to spend money on an IDE especially when they know there are free ones out there. The fact that the others may not be as good as IDEA isn't a big factor for them. Consequently, I buy all my own software and tote it around with me wherever I go and completely remove it when I leave a site. This can get pretty expensive so things like personal licenses are very important for me. I have a lot of software to keep up besides just IDEA: JProfiler, UltraEdit32, Registry Workshop, WinZip, NetSnippets, DbVisualiser, and TMate. That's represents about 70% of my purchased software. Soon I will probably be adding Poseidon's modeling tools to the list as well and that ain't cheap either.

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I'm in a cubicle farm as well. Don't like it very much. How are the JetBrains
offices layed out?

Tobin


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