Irida will ship without Subversion support

at least if Irida should ship this century and development continues at the same pace.

Seriously: I have more and more problems arguing for our use of Idea with my boss nagging me about Eclipse's subversion support - which is really getting better each milestone.

Subversion support is the one show-stopper that has to be included in Irida for us to buy it.

And there probably are other Idea users who defer their migration to Subversion until Idea's support is stable.

39 comments
Comment actions Permalink

A citation from NetBeans people talk about writing wizard to import Idea
projects comes to my mind:
"Stay tuned"

Eugene.

"Stephen Kelvin" <mail@gremlin.info> wrote in message
news:25119190.1117016309382.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost...

at least if Irida should ship this century and development continues at

the same pace.
>

Seriously: I have more and more problems arguing for our use of Idea with

my boss nagging me about Eclipse's subversion support - which is really
getting better each milestone.
>

Subversion support is the one show-stopper that has to be included in

Irida for us to buy it.
>

And there probably are other Idea users who defer their migration to

Subversion until Idea's support is stable.
>


0
Comment actions Permalink

Personally I don't think that subversion support should be a show
stopper because of the following reasons:

1. Subversion doesn't need to check out files, therefore more than half
of a source control system hassle is removed.

2. Committing your changes can be on a directory level, which is what I
do - I have an Explorer open with the relevant directory (i.e. no need
for explicit file handling in the work-flow). Subversion has a wonderful
client called Tortoise that simply integrates into Windows Explorer.

3. For some cases when I need to handle a specific file, I use the
Explorer external tool I once took from www.intellij.org. It lets you
right click a file and open a Windows Explorer with that file selected.
Then I can do what I want with the file. True, not as direct as doing it
directly in the IDE but the times I need to do that are very few and far
between.

You should have no argument with your boss. Someone with minimal
technical abilities (and development managers SHOULD have some technical
abilities...) would understand that every developer should choose their
preferred IDE in the Java world and arguments over some feature. If your
boss can't see that by himself/herself you have a problem.

I worked for several years for a boss that once told me after an hour of
presenting him technology I have developed "Well, 6 people say it's
good, 35 say it's bad, therefore it's bad". That guy couldn't even form
his own technical opinion...

Good luck,

Amnon

Stephen Kelvin wrote:

at least if Irida should ship this century and development continues at the same pace.

Seriously: I have more and more problems arguing for our use of Idea with my boss nagging me about Eclipse's subversion support - which is really getting better each milestone.

Subversion support is the one show-stopper that has to be included in Irida for us to buy it.

And there probably are other Idea users who defer their migration to Subversion until Idea's support is stable.

0
Comment actions Permalink

It better not.

That's all I gotta say.

R

0
Comment actions Permalink

So what you're basically saying is "IDEA currently doesn't support Subversion".

Regardless of other what other tools there are or how good they are, I can see how that would be a major factor in a decent manager's decision, and I'm sure as SVN gains more and more acceptance it is rapidly becoming a negative check against IDEA. I mean, I could use Notepad to edit Java source, and still do my job. IDEA makes me more efficient than Notepad, and IDEA with Subversion support would make me more efficient than IDEA without Subversion support.

However, if I was a manager and following the progress of the EAP, I would be much more concerned about the perceived lack of progress on the plugin than whatever level of support it currently provides. If I could see it maturing within, say, 2 months I might be convinceable. But people are screaming for svn support, and the level of support never seems to change. It just doesn't seem to be a priority.

0
Comment actions Permalink

Let me put it this way... No subversion plugin, no Irida. The
integration of the refactoring and VCS is THAT important.

Thanks
R

0
Comment actions Permalink

Colin Fleming wrote:

So what you're basically saying is "IDEA currently doesn't support Subversion".

Right now it doesn't (it . I have no idea if Irida will ship with SVN
support or not.


Regardless of other what other tools there are or how good they are, I can see how that would be a major factor in a decent manager's decision, and I'm sure as SVN gains more and more acceptance it is rapidly becoming a negative check against IDEA. I mean, I could use Notepad to edit Java source, and still do my job. IDEA makes me more efficient than Notepad, and IDEA with Subversion support would make me more efficient than IDEA without Subversion support.

Somewhat more efficient, true, but it is not as important as it is with
source control systems, where checking out files is a part of the work-flow.
The difference between Notepad and IDEA is bigger in several orders of
magnitude than the difference between IDEA with or without SVN support.


However, if I was a manager and following the progress of the EAP, I would be much more concerned about the perceived lack of progress on the plugin than whatever level of support it currently provides. If I could see it maturing within, say, 2 months I might be convinceable. But people are screaming for svn support, and the level of support never seems to change. It just doesn't seem to be a priority.

I agree it would be nice to have support for SVN, but at least for me
and the other several developers here it doesn't seem to be a show
stopper issue.

I think you missed one point in what I said, and that is that you can
have a heterogeneous environment with IDEA, Eclipse, etc., and that
should be encouraged if you have people used to different environments.
That is easily done through use of Ant build files (for example). A good
manager will not enforce a single environment and will tune in to each
developer productivity needs.

Amnon

0
Comment actions Permalink

Robert S. Sfeir wrote:

Let me put it this way... No subversion plugin, no Irida. The
integration of the refactoring and VCS is THAT important.

Thanks
R


I am sure JetBrains take this and other feedback into account, but at
the same time I don't think that SVN support makes it worth switching IDEs.

Amnon

0
Comment actions Permalink

I am sure JetBrains take this and other feedback into account, but at
the same time I don't think that SVN support makes it worth switching IDEs.


It depends on your project and how you integrate the 2. I also didn't
say I'd switch, I said no Irida.

R

0
Comment actions Permalink

I didn't miss it, and it's a good point - it's what we have here, for example. But there are plenty of companies that do mandate a fixed environment, and while I wouldn't, I understand why they do - it doesn't necessarily mean the managers are incompetent. It means that people can share everything about a project, they can have company-wide code formatting settings for example. And when everyone uses their favourite system, well, everyone spends xxx amount of time setting it up to try to conform to the company standard, and even then inevitably doesn't do it quite right. You have to justify the extra productivity you're going to get from an IDE if you want to use something non-standard, and "I have this amazing IDE that has 1,000,001 features for not interrupting my workflow but I have to drop to Explorer to interact with the VCS" - well, it doesn't sound good.

On top of all this, I just can't believe the integration is that hard (since as you said, Subversion has a pretty simple interaction model).

0
Comment actions Permalink

I'm using Irida EAP (build 3341), and am using the built in Subversion support (with only a few hiccups, buts things get better with each build). In fact, we switched internally from CVS to Subversion simply because this EAP build handles Subversion quite nicely. What's all this talk about Irida not supporting Subversion? What am I missing?

0
Comment actions Permalink

with only a few hiccups, buts things get better with each build

I think you are exceptionally lucky. Also I don't see any issues fixed at all in the recent releases.
Log into JetBrains Jira and do a search for "subversion".
"Unresolved" is the most frequent word in the result :)

It was somewhat cheap to use such a provocative title for this thread - but hey, at least it draws attention. None of my other recent posts have had so many replies.

0
Comment actions Permalink

In article <20692325.1117037214642.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>,
Andy DePue <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote:

I'm using Irida EAP (build 3341), and am using the built in Subversion
support (with only a few hiccups, buts things get better with each build).
In fact, we switched internally from CVS to Subversion simply because this
EAP build handles Subversion quite nicely. What's all this talk about Irida
not supporting Subversion? What am I missing?


I don't know. I think the original poster was just ranting... and since
I had not heard contrary from JetBrains, I responded to the post.

javaSVN is indeed missing merge currently, but I do know that it's on
the way. The good news is that what ever Eclipse has IDEA can have
because they both work on the same code base... same goes for it
missing... if it's missing from Eclipse, chances are it will also be
from IDEA because javaSVN doesn't support it yet... but Alex is working
his ass off on it.

R

0
Comment actions Permalink

Here's the deal. Refactoring is 90% renaming files and directories. SCM packages like CVS are fundamentally broken because they don't support renaming files and directories, whilst retaining histories. Removing the file and adding another simply doesn't cut it for professional developers, who need to track histories, releases, etc..

Finally a free open-source SCM package like Subversion arrives that fixes this issue once and for all. However, the support for it in Irida fails to take advantage of renaming support, and treats subversion like a CVS clone. Looks like copy-and-paste programming to us, and without proper support for Subversion, this may be the beginning of the end for IDEA...

0
Comment actions Permalink

Colin Fleming wrote:

I didn't miss it, and it's a good point - it's what we have here, for example. But there are plenty of companies that do mandate a fixed environment, and while I wouldn't, I understand why they do - it doesn't necessarily mean the managers are incompetent. It means that people can share everything about a project, they can have company-wide code formatting settings for example. And when everyone uses their favourite system, well, everyone spends xxx amount of time setting it up to try to conform to the company standard, and even then inevitably doesn't do it quite right. You have to justify the extra productivity you're going to get from an IDE if you want to use something non-standard, and "I have this amazing IDE that has 1,000,001 features for not interrupting my workflow but I have to drop to Explorer to interact with the VCS" - well, it doesn't sound good.

On top of all this, I just can't believe the integration is that hard (since as you said, Subversion has a pretty simple interaction model).

I agree on both accounts.

0
Comment actions Permalink

In article <29284078.1117039000317.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>,
Eamon Walshe <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote:

Finally a free open-source SCM package like Subversion arrives that fixes
this issue once and for all. However, the support for it in Irida fails to
take advantage of renaming support, and treats subversion like a CVS clone.
Looks like copy-and-paste programming to us, and without proper support for
Subversion, this may be the beginning of the end for IDEA...


Actually not true in latest builds. This was a bug I reported a while
ago, and if you do a rename or move in idea it properly handles it with
subversion... at least in my tests.

R

0
Comment actions Permalink

Amnon I. Govrin wrote:


I think you missed one point in what I said, and that is that you can
have a heterogeneous environment with IDEA, Eclipse, etc., and that
should be encouraged if you have people used to different environments.
That is easily done through use of Ant build files (for example). A good
manager will not enforce a single environment and will tune in to each
developer productivity needs.

Amnon


That is a typical non-business oriented perspective. Multiple dev.
environments are an unnecessary cost center. Sure it pleases everyone on
the development team who is religiously married to their favorite IDE
(it used to be emacs vs. vi!) as they get to use the one they are most
comfortable with.

It does not please the businesses bottom line though because of the
necessary overhead of developing an environment which supports all of
them. Sure it can be done but it is done at a cost that really has no
return on investment. You can argue productivity, but I would counter
argue that it is not large enough to offset the overall overhead of
supporting the heterogeneous environment.

Realistically the development organization should standardize on the
tools that afford the biggest return on investment - calculated by the
following cost analysis:

cost of purchasing and support contracts
cost of training
cost of maintaining the environment

vs.

value of products produced from the environment
(developer productivity is a factor in this among others)

I've seen plenty of shops which have heterogeneous eenvironments with
complex ant/build scripts that manage it all. Usually there are problems
of code working in one developers sandbox but not properly integrating
later on due environment differences (classpaths for this IDE are
different then that one etc etc). You can argue that you should have
smarter developers who don't let this happen. I would argue that if you
have one environment you never risk it happening.

Personally, I would like to see SVN support in IDEA. Most other major
IDE vendors are supporting it, even Xcode from Apple does. Many large
open source projects are shifting away from CVS to SVN for obvious
reasons. I would expect its support in any commercial tool that I buy
for my organization.

0
Comment actions Permalink

Stephen Kelvin wrote:

Subversion support is the one show-stopper that has to be included in Irida for us to buy it.



Agreed. We will not move to Irida until SVN support is in, complete and smooth.

Complete MUST mean full rename and move support and all known bugs addressed.

David
--
David Taylor, SL Corp.

0
Comment actions Permalink

Noah White wrote:

Amnon I. Govrin wrote:

>>
>> I think you missed one point in what I said, and that is that you can
>> have a heterogeneous environment with IDEA, Eclipse, etc., and that
>> should be encouraged if you have people used to different environments.
>> That is easily done through use of Ant build files (for example). A
>> good manager will not enforce a single environment and will tune in to
>> each developer productivity needs.
>>
>> Amnon


That is a typical non-business oriented perspective. Multiple dev.
environments are an unnecessary cost center. Sure it pleases everyone on
the development team who is religiously married to their favorite IDE
(it used to be emacs vs. vi!) as they get to use the one they are most
comfortable with.

It does not please the businesses bottom line though because of the
necessary overhead of developing an environment which supports all of
them. Sure it can be done but it is done at a cost that really has no
return on investment. You can argue productivity, but I would counter
argue that it is not large enough to offset the overall overhead of
supporting the heterogeneous environment.

Realistically the development organization should standardize on the
tools that afford the biggest return on investment - calculated by the
following cost analysis:

cost of purchasing and support contracts
cost of training
cost of maintaining the environment

vs.

value of products produced from the environment
(developer productivity is a factor in this among others)

I've seen plenty of shops which have heterogeneous eenvironments with
complex ant/build scripts that manage it all. Usually there are problems
of code working in one developers sandbox but not properly integrating
later on due environment differences (classpaths for this IDE are
different then that one etc etc). You can argue that you should have
smarter developers who don't let this happen. I would argue that if you
have one environment you never risk it happening.


It's never black or white and like everything else depends on the exact
situation at hand. Just like for some people a 20 inch LCD monitor
running at 1600 x 1200 is sometimes worse than a 19 inch monitor running
at 1280 x 1024 due to difference in eye sight.
I agree that sometimes it's better to standardize, sometimes it's not.
Moreover, you'll never know if a technology or tool is for you unless
you allow exceptions to the standardization. I've seen technologies and
environments get crushed by 'totally standardized' management because
they weren't 'the standard' or in other words lacked the necessary
buzzword compatibility.


Personally, I would like to see SVN support in IDEA. Most other major
IDE vendors are supporting it, even Xcode from Apple does. Many large
open source projects are shifting away from CVS to SVN for obvious
reasons. I would expect its support in any commercial tool that I buy
for my organization.


I would like to see it too, but I am still using IntelliJ because of
many other reasons, i.e. for us it is not a reason to choose one IDE
over the other unless everything else is equal or better in the IDE that
does support SVN.

0
Comment actions Permalink

Amnon I. Govrin wrote:

Noah White wrote:

>> Amnon I. Govrin wrote:
>>
>> Personally, I would like to see SVN support in IDEA. Most other major
>> IDE vendors are supporting it, even Xcode from Apple does. Many large
>> open source projects are shifting away from CVS to SVN for obvious
>> reasons. I would expect its support in any commercial tool that I buy
>> for my organization.


I would like to see it too, but I am still using IntelliJ because of
many other reasons, i.e. for us it is not a reason to choose one IDE
over the other unless everything else is equal or better in the IDE that
does support SVN.


I would also be very happy if the integration was complete and stable.
I am the lone IDEA user in an Eclipse shop that is in the process of switching to
subversion. As yet, I have been unable to convince management that the cost of IDEA is
minor when compared to the productivity enhancements that it provides. If the subversion
support in IDEA is viewed as being inferior to that in Eclipse, it will make my attempts to
convince them even less likely to succeed.

0
Comment actions Permalink

Robert S. Sfeir wrote:

The good news is that what ever Eclipse has IDEA can have
because they both work on the same code base... same goes for it
missing... if it's missing from Eclipse, chances are it will also be
from IDEA because javaSVN doesn't support it yet...

R


Unless the subclipse web site is wrong, the default is for subclipse to use JavaHL bindings
instead of JavaSVN. So, I don't believe that your statement about Eclipse and IDEA working
on the same code base is quite accurate.

Tim

0
Comment actions Permalink

Wow, lots of hyperbolic crap spewing.

First, according to the Irida planned feature set list, subersion support is included and it's "in progress." So what makes you think it won't be there especially since they continue to improve it?

Second, Noah...if you were my manager I would shoot myself in the head to end the misery. Seriously, you have no clue what you're talking about or how to manage a development environment.

0
Comment actions Permalink

On 2005-05-25 15:39:53 -0400, Tim Haley <ymaraner@yahoo.com> said:

Robert S. Sfeir wrote:

>> The good news is that what ever Eclipse has IDEA can have because they
>> both work on the same code base... same goes for it missing... if it's
>> missing from Eclipse, chances are it will also be from IDEA because
>> javaSVN doesn't support it yet...
>>
>> R


Unless the subclipse web site is wrong, the default is for subclipse to
use JavaHL bindings instead of JavaSVN. So, I don't believe that your
statement about Eclipse and IDEA working on the same code base is quite
accurate.

Tim


Indeed you're right, there is some sort of transition going on.
http://tmate.org/svn.

R

0
Comment actions Permalink

Robert S. Sfeir wrote:

On 2005-05-25 15:39:53 -0400, Tim Haley <ymaraner@yahoo.com> said:

>> Robert S. Sfeir wrote:
>>
>>> The good news is that what ever Eclipse has IDEA can have because
>>> they both work on the same code base... same goes for it missing...
>>> if it's missing from Eclipse, chances are it will also be from IDEA
>>> because javaSVN doesn't support it yet...
>>>
>>> R
>>
>>
>> Unless the subclipse web site is wrong, the default is for subclipse
>> to use JavaHL bindings instead of JavaSVN. So, I don't believe that
>> your statement about Eclipse and IDEA working on the same code base is
>> quite accurate.
>>
>> Tim


Indeed you're right, there is some sort of transition going on.
http://tmate.org/svn.

R

Given the state of the JavaSVN project , is it reasonable
to expect that the IDEA svn integration will be complete and stable any time soon?
I don't see any estimates on the JavaSVN site for when the incomplete features will be
completed. Maybe the svnClientAdapter approach taken by subclipse should be considered by
JetBrains as well.

Tim

0
Comment actions Permalink

Marc Stock wrote:

Wow, lots of hyperbolic crap spewing.

First, according to the Irida planned feature set list, subersion support is included and it's "in progress." So what makes you think it won't be there especially since they continue to improve it?

Second, Noah...if you were my manager I would shoot myself in the head to end the misery. Seriously, you have no clue what you're talking about or how to manage a development environment.


I'll make sure not to introduce you to my former R&D manager. You would
do much more than shoot yourself in the head.

At least this discussion entails some listening to what others are
saying :)

All in good spirit,
Amnon

0
Comment actions Permalink


>>

Given the state of the JavaSVN project
, is it reasonable to expect that the
IDEA svn integration will be complete and stable any time soon?


I know for sure that Merge is in progress and a couple of other pieces
to support more keywords like svn:executable. (My understanding is 3
weeks to have a stable branch)

So my personal feeling is that if they put someone on it soon, by the
time they need to implement merge and diffing, it will be ready for
them. So I think the answer is yes.

R

0
Comment actions Permalink

Alex rewrote a lot of stuff in JavaSVN and he guesses, that it will 2-3
weeks to get it stable as before. So Stephen may be right, if Irida is
scheduled for June 2005.

Tom

0
Comment actions Permalink

Second, Noah...if you were my manager I would shoot
myself in the head to end the misery. Seriously, you
have no clue what you're talking about or how to
manage a development environment.


Wow, lots of hyperbolic crap spewing.

0
Comment actions Permalink

Right ! Tortoise is THE TOOL :) I even prefer to use Tortoise (it almost looks like a built-in Windows) for CVS operations rather than the built-in Irida features.

0
Comment actions Permalink

LOL. Probably not working with any large project, are you?
Idea's merge tool alone is something I wouldn't want to miss.
Finally any major refactoring is a PITA without Idea support. Do you really want to handle hundreds of file moves manually i.e. with Tortoise or command line or any other way?

0
Comment actions Permalink

SmartSVN, for example, autodetects missing/unversioned file pairs when they
are similar enough. You also can select a missing and an unversioned file
and invoke the move command.

Tom

0

Please sign in to leave a comment.