how to not impress a c developer

a current co-worker of me is new to java,
he's experienced in C.
He's used to IDE like Visual Studio.

He has some complaints about IDEA in general:

1. overall performance.
1a) This starts when launching IDEA,
for sure Visual Studio starts much faster.
You can blame this to Java...
1b) when you open a project in IDEA the wait goes on
"scanning files..."
1c) commit project (CVS) somethimes causes very long pauses, without any notification, meaning no scrollbar,
not even a sandclock, just a grey area instead of a
modal dialog...

2. Two Projects in two frames
this is really a weakness IMHO: when you have 2 projects
open in IDEA, one instance is blocked if there's a modal
dialog on the other.
Very bad, and: don't blame it on Java ;)

3. the non-intuitive "Do Refactor" button in the "find usages" tab when you refactor.
Maybe this should be a dialog?
... which you can "send to background" (?!)

48 comments
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should read: meaning no PROGRESSbar

ITN Feature Request: edit post ;)

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Hello, Michael!
You wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 15:34:06 +0400 (MSD):

Just one big advance of IDEA over VisualStudio - Refactoring. I thing it
cover all performance restrictions...

MD> 1. overall performance.
MD> 1a) This starts when launching IDEA, for sure Visual Studio starts
MD> much faster.

VisualStudio.NET starts more slowly...

MD> 1b) when you open a project in IDEA the wait goes on "scanning
MD> files..."

And so on? :) It abnormal?

MD> 1c) commit project (CVS) somethimes causes very long pauses, without
MD> any notification, meaning no scrollbar, not even a sandclock, just a
MD> grey area instead of a modal dialog...

Hmm, that version of IDEA you using?

MD> 2. Two Projects in two frames this is really a weakness IMHO: when
MD> you have 2 projects open in IDEA, one instance is blocked if there's
MD> a modal dialog on the other.
MD> Very bad, and: don't blame it on Java ;)

Never seen this behaviour...

MD> 3. the non-intuitive "Do Refactor" button in the "find usages" tab
MD> when you refactor.
MD> Maybe this should be a dialog?
MD> .. which you can "send to background" (?!)

Maybe :)

Alexey Efimov - Java Developer
Tops BI
http://www.topsbi.com


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sure: the Refactoring alone beats Visual Studio.
But it seems like currently there are some attempts to
finish the worlds first C++ Refactoring tool ;)

About Visual Studio .NET: yes, another collogue told
me about his new .NET project being only bearable because
of ReSharper ;)

But it is true that my C-Collogue is avoiding to start up
IDEA as long as he can, because it takes so long...

He can start two instances of Visual Studio (6) without
problems - IDEA can start only one instance.
When you open two projects in IDEA, and have a modal
dialog in one, that takes some time to complete
(and has no "sent to background" button :)
-> for sure the other project is TOTALLY BLOCKED until it finishes.





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Hello, Michael!
You wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 16:35:14 +0400 (MSD):

MD> -> for sure the other project is TOTALLY BLOCKED until it finishes.
I'm not sure that is true... DialogWrapper must set parent window depends on
current project. If it not, then i thing it bug :)

Alexey Efimov - Java Developer
Tops BI
http://www.topsbi.com


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That modal dialog behavior blocking the other project is very annoying.
However, how often do you have two projects open simultaneously?
If it is extremely often, maybe the two projects should actually be modules
within a single project.
It is so uncommon for me, that I haven't found it worth the time to submit a
bug report. If it bothers you that much, submit one.

Tim

"Michael Damberger" <michael.damberger@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:30495027.1085661314055.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...

sure: the Refactoring alone beats Visual Studio.
But it seems like currently there are some attempts to
finish the worlds first C++ Refactoring tool ;)

>

About Visual Studio .NET: yes, another collogue told
me about his new .NET project being only bearable because
of ReSharper ;)

>

But it is true that my C-Collogue is avoiding to start up
IDEA as long as he can, because it takes so long...

>

He can start two instances of Visual Studio (6) without
problems - IDEA can start only one instance.
When you open two projects in IDEA, and have a modal
dialog in one, that takes some time to complete
(and has no "sent to background" button :)
-> for sure the other project is TOTALLY BLOCKED until it finishes.

>
>
>
>
>
>


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please describe one dialog that does not block
the other IDEA Frame.

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You cannot put EVERYTHING in one project ;)

Well, mostly this is because of the decreasing performance
when you keep on adding content roots.
Everything must be scanned / tracked for changes (local
history). Even if you exclude all dirs that are not required (like for logfiles, report files etc.)
Especially CVS commit project can get quite slow with
huge content roots.



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"loading project"
"the JDK Is Not Specified"
"Project Settings"
...


"Michael Damberger" <michael.damberger@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:26593354.1085662406563.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...

please describe one dialog that does not block
the other IDEA Frame.

>



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Alexey Efimov wrote:

Hello, Michael!
You wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 15:34:06 +0400 (MSD):

Just one big advance of IDEA over VisualStudio - Refactoring. I thing it
cover all performance restrictions...

I'm working with C++ (Visual Studio) and Java at the same time. And I can't
say that I'm missing refactoring doing my work in C++. Even though
I'm renaming, extracting, changing signatures in Java constantly.
Why is that? I don't really know the answer. May be I do my job more
carefully when I code in C++ because I know that I won't be able to
change it as easy as I would do in IDEA? I have noticed several times
that after applying refactoring (IDEA) few times in a row I don't
understand what is going on with the application anymore.

There are C++ applications and there are Java applications. Can you
say for sure that C++ ones worse than applications written in Java?

I just want to say that may be this refactoring phenomenum is not that
simple as it looks like.

MD> 1. overall performance.
MD> 1a) This starts when launching IDEA, for sure Visual Studio starts
MD> much faster.

VisualStudio.NET starts more slowly...

Ooo, come on Alex.

MD> 1b) when you open a project in IDEA the wait goes on "scanning
MD> files..."

And so on? :) It abnormal?

May be it's normal, but it makes me angry :)

Sergiy

ps. in my opinion IDEA is not better than Visual Studio (C++). They
are different. Use both and enjoy!

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Sorry, I misread your post. These all DO block the other frame.

"Tim Haley" <ymaraner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c94ojd$a48$1@is.intellij.net...

"loading project"
"the JDK Is Not Specified"
"Project Settings"
...

>
>

"Michael Damberger" <michael.damberger@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:26593354.1085662406563.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...

please describe one dialog that does not block
the other IDEA Frame.

>

>
>


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Michael Damberger wrote:

He can start two instances of Visual Studio (6) without
problems - IDEA can start only one instance.
When you open two projects in IDEA, and have a modal
dialog in one, that takes some time to complete
(and has no "sent to background" button :)
-> for sure the other project is TOTALLY BLOCKED until it finishes.

You can start two instances of IDEA if they have different system and
config folders. You can achieve this by installing two versions (or
messing with .bat /bin and/or idea.lax). This mode is not technically
supported, but I use it all the time to avoid the modal blocking problem.

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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MD> 2. Two Projects in two frames this is really a weakness IMHO: when
MD> you have 2 projects open in IDEA, one instance is blocked if there's
MD> a modal dialog on the other.
MD> Very bad, and: don't blame it on Java ;)

Never seen this behaviour...


But it exists. It is a problem of AWT/Swing.

Tom

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Hello, Sergiy!
You wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 15:57:51 +0300:

SD> I just want to say that may be this refactoring phenomenum is not
SD> that simple as it looks like.
Without refactoring you must sometimes throw ut your old code and write
new...
It not bad, but it takes very long time. And maybe i'm not right, but i
thing that why
big project is prefered Java language for coding, becouse there are tools
only for
Java refactoring. So, refactoring is realy make sence in development, and if
i get a choose between
Refactoring Tool that start slowly, and Fast tools taht can't make
refactoring, i'll take first
(no matter how fast it starts)...

>> VisualStudio.NET starts more slowly...
SD> Ooo, come on Alex.
OK :)

SD> ps. in my opinion IDEA is not better than Visual Studio (C++). They
SD> are different. Use both and enjoy!
Or use VIM :)

Alexey Efimov - Java Developer
Tops BI
http://www.topsbi.com


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Hello, Tim!
You wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 08:57:23 -0400:

TH> "loading project"
TH> "the JDK Is Not Specified"
TH> "Project Settings"

Not true (in all 3 cases). I'm just check it... I have two projects opened,
and i have opened Project Settings in one of them. And i can work with
another OK.

I'm test it on 2051 build...

Alexey Efimov - Java Developer
Tops BI
http://www.topsbi.com


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Thomas Singer (MoTJ) wrote:
>>> 2. Two Projects in two frames this is really a weakness IMHO: when
>>> you have 2 projects open in IDEA, one instance is blocked if there's
>>> a modal dialog on the other.
>>> Very bad, and: don't blame it on Java ;)
>>
>> Never seen this behaviour...
>

But it exists. It is a problem of AWT/Swing.

>

Yes it's an old bug, that later was changed to a RFE, so that Sun don't have
to correct it.
(http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4080029)
It's in the Top10 of the most wanted RFEs.

Carsten


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"Loading Project" does block a different project in 2051.
I just double checked.

"Project settings" and "the JDK is not specified" also block input to
the other open project.

Another is any ant dialog that is not sent to background. This will
block input to a another open project.

These all tested under 2051, Windows XP
regards,
Andy
Alexey Efimov wrote:

Hello, Tim!
You wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 08:57:23 -0400:

TH> "loading project"
TH> "the JDK Is Not Specified"
TH> "Project Settings"

Not true (in all 3 cases). I'm just check it... I have two projects opened,
and i have opened Project Settings in one of them. And i can work with
another OK.

I'm test it on 2051 build...

Alexey Efimov - Java Developer
Tops BI
http://www.topsbi.com

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Hello, Alexey!
You wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 17:19:56 +0400:

Oops...
I'm not deeply check it :)
It is problem of event dispatching. And it will exists on every modal
dialog.
But you can look at JFrame :))

Alexey Efimov - Java Developer
Tops BI
http://www.topsbi.com


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about the startup time, here's what I just measured:

empty startup: vs=1s idea=7s
load average sized project: vs=4s idea=22s

Sure, you cannot exactly compare the project load,
since obviously one is a C project, the other is a Java
project ... but you get the idea ;)

---
about not refactoring C/C++ code:
possibly you don't miss it because you don't have the tools for it?
Certainly I recently have seen C/C++ code that desparetely would
have needed refactoring - I won't tell names here :)

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thanks for the hint!



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In my experience, very few C++ projects don't need refactoring.

If you want to do C++ refactoring, check out Together ControlCenter. AFAIK,
several of the top IntelliJ guys came from there. I used it to refactor
some C++ projects a couple of years ago. It was amazing. It does
model-based refactoring in UML with the source code as the repository.
However, it was much slower than Visual Studio or IDEA.

You get what you wait for. If you don't want the intelligence of IDEA or
TogetherControlCenter then go with something quicker but dumber. If you
want your IDE to understand your code and help you make it less buggy and
more maintainable, you will have to wait for it to parse the code.

Tim


"Michael Damberger" <michael.damberger@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:26260910.1085665314713.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...

about the startup time, here's what I just measured:

>

empty startup: vs=1s idea=7s
load average sized project: vs=4s idea=22s

>

Sure, you cannot exactly compare the project load,
since obviously one is a C project, the other is a Java
project ... but you get the idea ;)

>

---
about not refactoring C/C++ code:
possibly you don't miss it because you don't have the tools for it?
Certainly I recently have seen C/C++ code that desparetely would
have needed refactoring - I won't tell names here :)

>
>


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Just because there is a Java bug doesn't mean that IntelliJ doesn't need to
find a way to work around it.

Why doesn't IDEA start the second project in a separate VM? IDEA could
certainly find a way to support that.

Tim

"Carsten Schäfer" <ca_schaefer@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:c94qki$nps$1@is.intellij.net...

Thomas Singer (MoTJ) wrote:
>>> 2. Two Projects in two frames this is really a weakness IMHO: when
>>> you have 2 projects open in IDEA, one instance is blocked if there's
>>> a modal dialog on the other.
>>> Very bad, and: don't blame it on Java ;)
>>
>> Never seen this behaviour...
>

But it exists. It is a problem of AWT/Swing.

>

>

Yes it's an old bug, that later was changed to a RFE, so that Sun don't

have

to correct it.
(http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4080029)
It's in the Top10 of the most wanted RFEs.

>

Carsten

>
>


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SD> I just want to say that may be this refactoring phenomenum is not
SD> that simple as it looks like.
Without refactoring you must sometimes throw ut your old code and write
new...
It not bad, but it takes very long time. And maybe i'm not right, but i
thing that why
big project is prefered Java language for coding, becouse there are tools
only for

I'm not a System Architect either, but I think they consider other
requirements then Refactoring ;) And ability to refactor code won't be
in Top 5.

Java refactoring. So, refactoring is realy make sence in development, and if
i get a choose between
Refactoring Tool that start slowly, and Fast tools taht can't make
refactoring, i'll take first
(no matter how fast it starts)...

Refactoring gives you speed. Refactoring doesn't help you to choose the
name of method or variable. It doesn't help you to choose which methods
must be in abstract class. All it does is automation. If you are
talented person you are moving in a right direction, it will give you
additional speed. If you are not, you will move in a wrong direction ...
with the same speed. What is better?

I think Refactoring as a technology is not a step forward or backward
just sideward.

Sergiy

ps. in my opinion rewriting is better than refactoring :)

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>>---
>>about not refactoring C/C++ code:
>>possibly you don't miss it because you don't have the tools for it?
>>Certainly I recently have seen C/C++ code that desparetely would
>>have needed refactoring - I won't tell names here :)
I miss IDEA's srcs highlighting everytime I see VStudio without
Visual Assist. So I think I would miss refactoring if it would touch
my soul :)

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Why not compare the compile speed of a medium-sized C(++) and a Java
application? Then Java is definitely the winner.

Tom

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Don't you think, this is a little bit of an overkill?

Tom

Tim Haley wrote:

Just because there is a Java bug doesn't mean that IntelliJ doesn't need to
find a way to work around it.

Why doesn't IDEA start the second project in a separate VM? IDEA could
certainly find a way to support that.

TimWhy doesn't IDEA start the second project in a separate VM?

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Why not compare the compile speed of a medium-sized C(++) and a Java
application? Then Java is definitely the winner.

I guess in this case we need to compare JET vs Visual C++.
Sergiy

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"Thomas Singer (MoTJ)" <idea@NOregnisSpam.de> wrote

Don't you think, this is a little bit of an overkill?


Not compared to this, the only workaround that I've heard of:

"Rob Harwood" <rob.harwood@jetbrains.com> wrote in message
news:c94ome$afh$1@is.intellij.net...

You can start two instances of IDEA if they have different system and
config folders. You can achieve this by installing two versions (or
messing with .bat /bin and/or idea.lax). This mode is not technically
supported, but I use it all the time to avoid the modal blocking problem.

>

--
Rob Harwood



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Only modal dialogs block all the frames, and this seems to be what idea
is using :(

In my projects I become aware of this very early and they all have non
modal dialogs - no blocking problems. The problem is that it may not be
that easy (in many cases it can be very hard) changing from modal to
non modal dialogs.

Non modal dialogs have another advantage: the parent frame can be
minimized/restored (minimizing/restoring also the dialog) giving screen
real estate back to the user.

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Not really. Java has proved that a mix of JIT compiling and dynamic interpreting can be even faster than static compiling. Sure, this wasn't true when Java first came to the world, but today the JVM can execute code as fast (if not faster) as a static compiled application.

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in some project I saw this applies: full rebuild takes
5 min for 480 sourcefiles - I could not believe that
a compiler can be that slow ;)

the c guru assured me that this is only because the
concept of the imports is a mess. He said something
like "guess how many lines of code get imported in that
project" and then something about Gigabytes...

-> so I think there's room for some refactorings in C/C++
that could really speed up the build process ;)

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