What about Aspect/J support?

It seems the Pallada release does not have Aspect/J support planned. Did I miss something or has this been postponed even further or completely dropped?

Grateful for any info.

Cheers,
Jon

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Jon Tirsen wrote:

It seems the Pallada release does not have Aspect/J support planned. Did I miss something or has this been postponed even further or completely dropped?

Grateful for any info.

Cheers,
Jon

It is not dropped nor planned for Pallada. That's true.

--
Maxim Shafirov
IntelliJ Labs / JetBrains Inc.
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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"...nor planned for Pallada".

God Bless you Maxim. Keep "postponing" it. Keep focused on the
meat-and-potatos issues that we have to face daily (ie. Weblogic
integration, CVS, more refactorings, better JSP support, etc. In fact, I'd
love to start a grass roots effort to collect donations to help fund a
Reformat JSP functionality. You guys can organize my Java code so nicely,
but my JSPs look like crap and I have to resort to manually tabbing things
into place. If we can get 1000 EAPers to donate $10USD, I'm sure you can
assign a guy to code this up.


:)


"Maxim Shafirov (JetBrains)" <max@intellij.com> wrote in message
news:c4gnnb$fi$1@is.intellij.net...

Jon Tirsen wrote:

>

It seems the Pallada release does not have Aspect/J support planned. Did

I miss something or has this been postponed even further or completely
dropped?

>

Grateful for any info.

>

Cheers,
Jon

It is not dropped nor planned for Pallada. That's true.

>

--
Maxim Shafirov
IntelliJ Labs / JetBrains Inc.
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"



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Michael Morett wrote:

In fact, I'd
love to start a grass roots effort to collect donations to help fund a
Reformat JSP functionality. You guys can organize my Java code so nicely,
but my JSPs look like crap and I have to resort to manually tabbing things
into place. If we can get 1000 EAPers to donate $10USD, I'm sure you can
assign a guy to code this up.


Or during EAP, IDEA itself could charge $0.25 per JSP reformat until the
needed total is accumulated for JSP reformatting to go FCS. ;)

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OMG...that is SO funny. Talk about a great idea based on an ASP model.
IDEA is distributed for free...but you pay for what you use. Refactorings
cost you $.01 per use. Aspect stuff costs you $.75 per use. Debugging is
$.10 per breakpoint.

LOL. Awesome.


"Jon Steelman" <jon@cc.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:c4lc2l$5rt$1@is.intellij.net...

Michael Morett wrote:

In fact, I'd
love to start a grass roots effort to collect donations to help fund a
Reformat JSP functionality. You guys can organize my Java code so

nicely,

but my JSPs look like crap and I have to resort to manually tabbing

things

into place. If we can get 1000 EAPers to donate $10USD, I'm sure you

can

assign a guy to code this up.

>

Or during EAP, IDEA itself could charge $0.25 per JSP reformat until the
needed total is accumulated for JSP reformatting to go FCS. ;)



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Hello Michael,

"...nor planned for Pallada".

God Bless you Maxim. Keep "postponing" it. Keep focused on the
meat-and-potatos issues that we have to face daily (ie. Weblogic
integration, CVS, more refactorings, better JSP support, etc. In
fact, I'd love to start a grass roots effort to collect donations to
help fund a Reformat JSP functionality. You guys can organize my Java
code so nicely, but my JSPs look like crap and I have to resort to
manually tabbing things into place. If we can get 1000 EAPers to
donate $10USD, I'm sure you can assign a guy to code this up.


I've got my $10.00 in hand for JSP improvements, where do I send it? If that's what it will take to get the damn thing whiped into shape! :)

R
-- Posted by JetBrains OmniaMea

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Do you have any time frame for aspect j support at all?

--pete

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I think you missed the point. What they are saying is there this would
be useful for a minority of IntelliJ users, but he JSP reformat would
benefit a large majority of uses.

Read between the lines of his response. Here, let me translate: "Not
today. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe not."

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Peter Morelli wrote:

>Do you have any time frame for aspect j support at all?
>
>--pete

>

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No, I don't think I missed the point. I asked for a clarification from Jetbrains on AspectJ support. I would like a more solid timeframe on Aspects support from the "official" source, ie, where it lies on their priority list.

We're starting some preliminary work on using aspects in our system (virtual mock objects for testing, if anyone is curious), and I'd like to know if we're going to be using Eclipse, or if we could delay a few months and get a nice Intellij version, even an EAP.

Your "translation" was not particularly helpful. That vagueness is what I'm trying to eliminate. If they don't know their plans, fair enough. I'd just like some more information, so we can make some planning decisions on our toolset.

I'm not going to get into the utility of the JSP 2.0 features vs Aspects. I don't have any comprehensive statistics on jsp 2.0 feature users vs aspect users, and don't care to contribute useless anectodal ones.

For what it's worth, I think the JSP work is much simpler than a good aspects implementation, as I think its complexity is much lower, and touches fewer IDE areas. Also, the aspectj stuff is still in flux, at least compared to the JSP specs.

Regardless, any information on AOP plans from Jetbrains would be much appreciated...

--pete

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Hello Norris,

I think you missed the point. What they are saying is there this
would be useful for a minority of IntelliJ users, but he JSP reformat
would benefit a large majority of uses.

Read between the lines of his response. Here, let me translate: "Not
today. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe not."


"And we're not in a real hurry to get it to you" :)


Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer
Peter Morelli wrote:

>> Do you have any time frame for aspect j support at all?
>>
>> --pete
>>

-- Posted by JetBrains OmniaMea

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Now i would like to say something too.

I am already waiting for AspectJ Support in IDEA too, i think this is
one of the major new techniques available for java today (beside
generics for sure).

Maybe, not everyone might use it today, this could be due to the
complexity it looks like to have.
But if you read a book about it, you might see, that there are for sure
a couple of things which could be solved more elegant.

Beside the logging stuff, i think of e.g. the dirty flag which will be
set automtically by adding an aspect to decorate a class with such a
flag and add a pointcut on every set* method.

For sure, the aspectj beast could only be hold under control by having a
IDE which will greatly support this.

I am not happy if Jetbrains will not cleanly position at this.
And i am much more not happy if Jetbrains drop support for aspectj
completely.

So this is a strong +1 for adding aspectj support to idea, even if this
might only be - say - within the next half year.

-- Mario

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We're starting some preliminary work on using aspects in our system (virtual mock objects for testing, if anyone is curious), and I'd like to know if we're going to be using Eclipse, or if we could delay a few months and get a nice Intellij version, even an EAP.

Then allow me to save you a bit of time. You're going to be using Eclipse.

I find it a little bizarre that you are basing your project plans around your IDE! If Eclipse has AspectJ support now, and that's what's most important to you, then you should go right ahead and use it; rather than wait a few months for a feature set that wasn't promised and would have no idea if it was even usuable when it arrived.

I believe that the reply to your enquiry was:

"It is not dropped nor planned for Pallada. That's true."

Which I take to mean:

"It was never dropped from Pallada because it was never planned for Pallada."

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I am already waiting for AspectJ Support in IDEA too, i think this is one of the major new techniques available for java today (beside generics for sure).

Well unfortunately, JetBrains isn't going to add support for AspectJ just because a small number of people believe it is one of the major new techniques available in Java today. It hasn't even been ratified by Sun, so it's not really part of Java is it?

+Maybe, not everyone might use it today, this could be due to the
complexity it looks like to have.
But if you read a book about it, you might see, that there are for sure
a couple of things which could be solved more elegant.+

IDEA is a business tool, not a playground. I'm not saying that AspectJ is not a wonderful invention, but until the developer community is asking for it in massive numbers, then JetBrains would be wasting resources by supporting it.

Beside the logging stuff, i think of e.g. the dirty flag which will beset automtically by adding an aspect to decorate a class with such a flag and add a pointcut on every set* method.

Yes, all I see is debug logging examples. I can get this from log4j. Someone once showed me something else, but I can't remember for the life of me what it was.

I am not happy if Jetbrains will not cleanly position at this. And i am much more not happy if Jetbrains drop support for aspectj completely.

I think there position is pretty clear.

"Don't hold your breath"

+So this is a strong 1 for adding aspectj support to idea, even if this might only be - say - within the next half year.

If half the Java community is using within half a year, then yes they should add it. If not, forget it.

In the meantime, I hope they do a little more work on JSP support .... which has many more users than AspectJ.





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Rayz the only thing I will say about AspectJ support is that if JetBrains added it to IDEA it would become one of the first mainstream IDEs to fully support AOP in Java and thus would re-establish their position as top innovators, an area in which many people on these forums felt was a little lacking in the 4x product stream.

I'm not saying I support AspectJ myself, or would even use it, but I could see why people would expect a company with a reputation for innovation to... well... innovate. :)

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]]>
If Jetbrains would have decided to add speak-recognision and reading
source-code to IDEA, it would re-establish their position as top
innovators ;)
</rant>

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Eclipse has had AspectJ support for I don't know how long, but quite a while. So IDEA would not be the first.

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I'm not basing my plans around an IDE, I'm evaluating my options for my toolset for the next 3 months. I love working in Intellij, and if at all possible, I'd like to avoid the cost of switching to another for one small part of the project. The work we're doing with aspects is not high priority, if the option to get aspect support exists in a short time frame, I'll take it. I'd just like some concrete information.

The feature set was on the list for 4.0. It was dropped relatively late in the EAP cycle. I don't know if it was promised, but it's been on the radar, at least.

And again, thanks for the translations, but they're not needed. I understood what was meant, and am asking for more information.

--peter

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I don't really understand why people get so religious about this.

Let me try and reiterate this before the thread is drowned in a lot of back and forth:

I would appreciate it if someone from Jetbrains would just tell us about their aspect plans, even if they have been delayed or cancelled.

That's it. I'm not advocating for or against, or changing priorities etc. I've done that with my votes in the feature tracker. I just want information to base some decisions on. Thank you.

--pete

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Peter Morelli wrote:

I'm not basing my plans around an IDE, I'm evaluating my options for my toolset for the next 3 months. I love working in Intellij, and if at all possible, I'd like to avoid the cost of switching to another for one small part of the project. The work we're doing with aspects is not high priority, if the option to get aspect support exists in a short time frame, I'll take it. I'd just like some concrete information.

The feature set was on the list for 4.0. It was dropped relatively late in the EAP cycle. I don't know if it was promised, but it's been on the radar, at least.

And again, thanks for the translations, but they're not needed. I understood what was meant, and am asking for more information.

--peter


Peter,
State of the things I see it right now is as follows: there's no plans to drop AspectJ support completely, honestly. On
the other hand the final decision on wether AspectJ will be included into 5.0 releas will depend on what else features
will be targeted there and what time frame will be defined. Both topics there aren't yet even came close to a final
decision. So I just can't promise anything right now. Sorry.

--
Maxim Shafirov
IntelliJ Labs / JetBrains Inc.
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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Thanks for your reply. Please keep us informed as much as possible about this subject, and thanks for a great product. ;o)

--peter

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>IDEA is a business tool, not a playground. I'm not saying that AspectJ is
not a >wonderful invention, but until the developer community is asking for
it in massive >numbers, then JetBrains would be wasting resources by
supporting it.

Rayz while you absolutely right about business tool I think you have wrong
expectation about developer community asking for something. It wont it just
will leave IDEA for another framework that supports requires features. I
can't tell about many developers but I know that if AspectJ is not in IDEA
5.0 our company (site license with about 100 active users) will finally
switch Eclipse. Absence of AspecctJ support forces quite a few people in our
organization to juggle between two environments which is major hassle. There
is major difference between imperfect support and total absence of support
you can live with first but not second. And another consideration - after
developer switches there is no easy way back. IntelliJ will need some
features that Eclipse totally lacks otherwise it will be hard to justify
such a switch. Simply more convenient or slick doesn't cut it. New IDE will
require 2-3 days to adapt. My day costs ~$1000 I should have a pretty good
explanation why company should spend ~$3000 per developer.
Finally, of course this is business decision that IntelliJ should make
(support AspectJ or spend more time supporting different J2EE features) and
whatever direction they choose I wish them best of luck.

Alex Oscherov

"Rayz" <no_mail@jetbrains.com> wrote in message
news:3431050.1081235667557.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...

+I am already waiting for AspectJ Support in IDEA too, i think this is

one of the major new techniques available for java today (beside generics
for sure).+
>

Well unfortunately, JetBrains isn't going to add support for AspectJ just

because a small number of people believe it is one of the major new
techniques available in Java today. It hasn't even been ratified by Sun, so
it's not really part of Java is it?
>

+Maybe, not everyone might use it today, this could be due to the
complexity it looks like to have.
But if you read a book about it, you might see, that there are for sure
a couple of things which could be solved more elegant.+

>

IDEA is a business tool, not a playground. I'm not saying that AspectJ is

not a wonderful invention, but until the developer community is asking for
it in massive numbers, then JetBrains would be wasting resources by
supporting it.
>

+Beside the logging stuff, i think of e.g. the dirty flag which will

beset automtically by adding an aspect to decorate a class with such a flag
and add a pointcut on every set* method.+
>

Yes, all I see is debug logging examples. I can get this from log4j.

Someone once showed me something else, but I can't remember for the life of
me what it was.
>

+I am not happy if Jetbrains will not cleanly position at this. And i am

much more not happy if Jetbrains drop support for aspectj completely.+
>

I think there position is pretty clear.

>

"Don't hold your breath"

>

+So this is a strong +1 for adding aspectj support to idea, even if this

might only be - say - within the next half year.+
>

If half the Java community is using within half a year, then yes they

should add it. If not, forget it.
>

In the meantime, I hope they do a little more work on JSP support ....

which has many more users than AspectJ.
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Thomas Singer (MoTJ) wrote:
> > If Jetbrains would have decided to add speak-recognision and reading > source-code to IDEA, it would re-establish their position as top >]]> innovators ;)
> </rant>


Just switch to MacOS X, and you'll get both features today :)
What does it say about Apple's position, in the innovators' queue ?!

Alain

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It's not really about being the first; I think it's about being useful.

Eclipse has the backing of IBM, so they can afford to build in stuff that a very small number of people will use. I imagine that resources for JetBrains are a little tighter, so I feel they would be better off using them on something like adequate JSP support, which Eclipse doesn't have, even though JSP is much more widely used than aspects.

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>> It wont it just will leave IDEA for another framework that supports requires features. I can't tell about many developers but I know that if AspectJ is not in IDEA
5.0 our company (site license with about 100 activeusers) will finally switch Eclipse. Absence of AspecctJ support forces quite a few people in our
organization to juggle between two environments which is major hassle. There
is major difference between imperfect support and total absence of supportyou can live with first but not second. And another consideration - after developer switches there is no easy way back. IntelliJ will need some
features that Eclipse totally lacks otherwise it will be hard to justify such a switch. <<

The point is how big is such a requirement, compared to using the resources to imporve something else.

They could build aspectJ support and gain 50 users, or build in support for Struts (example) and gain 1000.

Perhaps the problem is that IDEA needs to be more extensible; then someone else could write it as an add-on.

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Perhaps the problem is that IDEA needs to be more extensible; then someone else could write it as an add-on.


IMHO, that's exactly the point. Eclipse's advantage seems to be the huge community actively developing plugins. I think that JetBrains should to open their APIs even further and establish a quality process to a point where third-party products could close the gap on missing functionality, such as Aspect/J support. Be it commercial or open-source.

Having that said, I'd still like to see close collaboration between JetBrains and external providers. Maybe a "JetBrains Certified Plugin"?

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Rayz wrote:

They could build aspectJ support and gain 50 users, or build in support for Struts (example) and gain 1000.


Take a look into the tracker and sort by votes:

1. Aspect-J 3066 Votes (4%)
2. subversion 2640 Votes (3%)
3. JSP reformat 1541 Votes (2%)

Maybe people have forgotten to reject their vote for Aspect-J - or there
is already a large community willing to have it.

-- Mario

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They could build aspectJ support and gain 50 users, or
build in support for Struts (example) and gain 1000.


I have to admit that I would find built in Struts support very useful indeed. Struts Console is ok but it's not the same as having fully in-built support. I would like to see AspectJ support in IDEA (though I'm not sure I currently have a use for it) but not at the cost of better J2EE (which is where most of my development time is focused these days).

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Maybe people have forgotten to reject their vote for Aspect-J - or there
is already a large community willing to have it.


Do you really think, 4% are a large community?

Tom

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Good idea ...

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I think we've been through this one before.

The number of votes is pretty irrelevant, what counts is the number of voters .... :)

As I remember, we had a handful of of people using all their votes on Aspect/J, which didn't really give a fair idea of just how few IDEA users were interested in it.

If it can be implemented as a optional plug-in, then fine; but I'd rather not have it cluttering up the interface without being able to get rid of it.

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There's an easy way to see the number of voters for a request. Next to the "items on page" drop box is a "select columns" link. Voters is an option.

Here are the top three.

1. AspectJ Support - 97 voters
2. subversion integration - 81 voters
3. support JSP reformat code - 60 voters

I couldn't resist. ;o)

--pete

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