45 comments

Strange suggestion!
Idea already does a lot of the RefactorIt features... (and usually faster)
More there are more refactoring features in Idea than in RefactorIt.
And, where is the "intent programming" feature!

"Alexey Efimov" <aefimov@spklabs.com> a ?crit dans le message de news:
31421912.1052303206533.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost...

subj,
Look at this solution, it is already support JBuilder, Netbeans, Sun

Studio.

http://www.refactorit.com
Maybe it will be nice in Aurora too?

>

Thanks!



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What RefactoreIt can do, that IDEA can't?

Tom

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The Ariadna have PSI interface as you know, but in Aurora it maybe use BCEL for access to class member.
So, i have a similar question about refactoring. This is already presend in Ariadna, and have more features, but IntelliJ is not refactoring tool as RefactorIt.

I just ask for this integration :)

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Nothing nonsence. But RefactorIt can work with sources on diferent drives :)) But is too bit dif :)

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On Wed, 07 May 2003 12:39:48 +0200, Regis Le Brettevillois wrote:

Strange suggestion!
Idea already does a lot of the RefactorIt features... (and usually faster)
More there are more refactoring features in Idea than in RefactorIt. And,
where is the "intent programming" feature!


I'd assume if the RefactorIt guys wanted to support Idea they would. But
with the excellent refactoring built in, its a bit of a loss leader.

--
...turn to the light - don't be frightened by the shadows it creates,
...turn to the light - turning away could be a terrible mistake
...dream theater - the great debate


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What do you mean by "IntelliJ is not refactoring tool as RefactorIt"?
Idea is the best refactoring tool I ever used.
But it's also one of the best Java code editor.
Of course I miss some features but they will come one day or another.

"Alexey Efimov" <aefimov@spklabs.com> a ?crit dans le message de news:
14952099.1052304360364.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost...

The Ariadna have PSI interface as you know, but in Aurora it maybe use

BCEL for access to class member.

So, i have a similar question about refactoring. This is already presend

in Ariadna, and have more features, but IntelliJ is not refactoring tool as
RefactorIt.
>

I just ask for this integration :)



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But refactoring is not main purpose of it IDE, but and not last too. In RefactorIt the main purpose - is code refactoring.
For IntelliJ the main purpose - is all that can be help with development, "Develop with pleasure", not refactoring as main.
But, i agree with you, IntelliJ now is best tool for refactoring!
But maybe in a little time RefactorIt will be leader of refactoring, and IntelliJ work will be forgeted :(( Becose, again, IntelliJ is IDE (with one of part - refactor tool), but RefactorIt is only refactor tool.

Thanks!

0

As a refactoring tool, no. There looks to be only one refactoring in RefactorIT that isn't already present in IDEA ("Split Class"), and JetBrains could probably add that in an afternoon if anyone really cared. OTOH, I would love to see something like the metrics side of RefactorIT integrated into IDEA.

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Alexey Efimov wrote:

But refactoring is not main purpose of it IDE, but and not last too. In RefactorIt the main purpose - is code refactoring.
For IntelliJ the main purpose - is all that can be help with development, "Develop with pleasure", not refactoring as main.
But, i agree with you, IntelliJ now is best tool for refactoring!
But maybe in a little time RefactorIt will be leader of refactoring, and IntelliJ work will be forgeted :(( Becose, again, IntelliJ is IDE (with one of part - refactor tool), but RefactorIt is only refactor tool.

Thanks!


Those who have known IDEA long enough will remember that before IDEA
(the IDE) v.1.0 the same guys developed a JBuilder plug-in for doing
'search usages' ...

they stopped developing plug-ins to sell an IDE : Only they know if they
will ever go back ...

Edo

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Maybe you right :)
I guess that refactor tool in IntelliJ will be nice as other-side integration tool, but maybe i'll wrong.

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True. Also let's not forget that IDEA's forte (no pun intended) is refactoring, and as far as I can tell, they smoke ALL IDEs out there in that category. That's what separates them from the crowd, just like JBuilder separates itself with the zillion features it has which makes a swiss army knife look like an exacto knife.

If you like something in RefactoryIt, then get that and use it as part of your tool, if you think it should be plugged in, write the plugin; I'm sure JetBrains will reward you for it.

R

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I actually have been playing around with a metrics plug-in, but lack of time and limitations of the OpenAPI keep it from getting too high on my priority stack.

--Dave

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some code metrics, which I find useful, esp when designing apis/frameworks vs implementations. Here's the request ;o)

http://www.intellij.net/tracker/idea/viewSCR?publicId=9710

Its search functionality is a little more advanced, as well.

Here's the fact sheet...

http://www.refactorit.com/files/factsheet.pdf

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actually refactoring and metrics is something that shouldn't be a plug-in in development. Refactoring is not a once in a while thing. I use refactoring constantly because as Preagmatic Programming says... maintaining code starts about 10 minutes after you have created a new class in a project. It's no longer new code and you shouldn't think... oh i'll clean up that method after v1.0!!!

Same thing with metrics(IDEA is lacking in that field). Don't test later, don't look for code bloat and dependency problems 6 month and 500 classes into a project... do it as often as you think of it.

So for me refactoring is a core issue. ctrl-alt-m; ctrl-alt-v or f; f6; shift-f6, and others... I use tabout as much as cut and paste!

Florian Hehlen

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Florian Hehlen wrote:

So for me refactoring is a core issue. ctrl-alt-m; ctrl-alt-v or f; f6; shift-f6, and others... I use tabout as much as cut and paste!


I totally agree. In fact, I use refactoring even as I write new code.
For example, I want to assign the value of an expression to a variable.
I just type the expression on a new line, press Cltr-Alt-V, select or
type my variable name and its done. Especially useful if one has long
class names like PsiMethodCallExpression ;)

Ciao,
Gordon

--
Gordon Tyler (Software Developer)
Quest Software <http://java.quest.com/>
260 King Street East, Toronto, Ontario M5A 4L5, Canada
Voice: 416-643-4846 | Fax: 416-594-1919

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I was wondering if I was the only one like that. It's getting so that typing local variable declarations, type casts, and method signatures are almost as uncommon for me as typing import statements or throws declarations (which is to say, never). And the scary thing is that I know that if I fully utilized the capacities of the tool, I'd type even less. Why bother declaring a field to be "private", for instance, when the inspector will do it for you (I'm already there with "final")?

I quite agree with the above comment on metrics, as well. I've got a strong hunch (backed by some experience), that a truly integrated metrics tool could be almost as big a productivity win as the current integrated refactoring, and would strongly complement it. The only sad thing is that I don't think we could get there with a plug-in.

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Edoardo Comar wrote:
> Those who have known IDEA long enough will remember that
> before IDEA (the IDE) v.1.0 the same guys developed a JBuilder
> plug-in for doing 'search usages' ...
> they stopped developing plug-ins to sell an IDE : Only they know
> if they will ever go back ...

I remember that time dearly.

After reading Martin Fowler's book, and trying to implement his teaching
with JBuilder, I had our department purchase IntelliJ's plug-in for
JBuiler, but I couldn't keep wondering about their IDE project : "Why on
earth are these smart guys trying to out-smart JBuilder, and VisualAge
team? Who do they think they are? Where do they come from ?"

A few years later, I'm happy for what they brought to us, and feeling a
lot more modest about other people's right to reach for the moon.

Alain Ravet

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Same here... I suspect it's a disease you catch when using IDEA... _ After a while, you cannot stand looking at ugly code anymore when IDEA makes it so easy to improve.

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I had a thread on that a while back. I detail what I found interesting:
http://www.intellij.net/forums/thread.jsp?forum=22&thread=23554&message=450763&q=7265666163746f726974#450763

BTW I discovered that our jetbrains friends have slated the "move method" refactoring for Aurora. Great news!

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Beware. Eclipse is pretty much equivalent with their 2.1 release. They are missing some and they have some additional ones (move refactoring and inline constant).
It was true last year that IDEA was the defacto standard refactoring tool but the competition hasn't thrown the towel yet.
Our JetBrains friends have to keep improving their refactoring support or they might lose the Refactoring father (M Fowler) endorsement...

Sorry again if I sound pessimistic now but I want my IDE to be the best and I will fight for what I believe makes us more productive ;)

Refactorings are not an add-on to an IDE. To me they are as important as a good intelligent editor. I could go w/o a debugger. I am not sure I could develop w/o refactorings anymore. That is why I cannot develop in C++ anymore.

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Same here... I suspect it's a disease you catch when
using IDEA...


Yes definetely. It's been spreading here where I work like a virus. I have yet to see one person try it and then NOT adopt it!

I think the key thing for me is that it allows me to actually apply XP principles and and Pragmatic programming principles eventhough my work environment does not support these ideas.

IDEA IS the second person in my pair-programming team :)

Florian

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Beware. Eclipse is pretty much equivalent with their
2.1 release.


I agree I have noticed this aswell. Intellij lead on the market is shrinking in the hard-core features like refactoring. BUT... there is still something quite different about using almost identical tools in eclipse and NetBeans. Those features feel like they have been tacked on in those tools while in intellij they are completely integrated with the rest of the app. One such thing I use all the time which always impresses me is the ability to chech-out files from within a refactoring preview.

But yes, they have to watch out. And i hope the intellij guys are looking at all the IDE's out there to keep track of what the cmpetition is up to.

could go w/o a debugger. I am not sure I could
develop w/o refactorings anymore. That is why I
cannot develop in C++ anymore.


I can't live without refactoring either. I can't live without the degree to which IDEA can be configured to fit your world. my collegues think I'm nuts.

Florian

Florian

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That is why I cannot develop in C++ anymore.


Same here, and I was wondering: are there any refactoring tools for C++ out
there? Or doesn't C++ lend itself to be refactored?


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Unfortunately not that I know of.
At a webinar on Together CodeCenter I heard that they would add some to their next C++ release. It was however before Borland acquired TogetherSoft.
We are pushing slickedit in that direction as well.

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Unfortunately not that I know of.


Do you know why this is so? I get SO frustrated when I have to use MVC++
after using IDEA...


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java has a simple syntax (sometimes I think too simple) with a provided set of tool to parse it.
C++ has a very complex language with many variation. To support refactoring on C++ you would have to support a lot of compilers on a lot of platforms.
I am sure there are more reasons...

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Jacques,

java has a simple syntax (sometimes I think too simple) with a provided set of tool to parse it.
C++ has a very complex language with many variation. To support refactoring on C++ you would have to support a lot of compilers on a lot of platforms.
I am sure there are more reasons...


One of the reasons it's not done yet for C++ is, I think, preprocessing. With preprocessing it's very,
very difficult to support correct refactoring.

--
Dmitry Skavish
-


Boston, MA, USA
tel. +1 781 370-6909
http://www.jzox.com
http://www.flashgap.com

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The only thing I saw: XRefactory ( http://www.xref-tech.com/ , I've never tried it). It claims to have some refactoring support for C.

There's also an C/C++ Eclipse project (also never tried it), probably in alpha ( http://www.eclipse.org/cdt/ ). Looks like they're developing a C parser and a C model, so eventually maybe they'll have some refactorings.

Same here, and I was wondering: are there any
refactoring tools for C++ out
there? Or doesn't C++ lend itself to be refactored?

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Yep.

"Preprocessors are not a good thing in my opinion: makes it harder to build IDEs (mainly the editing tools
as the source doesn't have to conform to the underlying language syntax) and increases the distance
from source to executable form. Also, preprocessors have traditionally been used by C/C++
headers that make things even more difficult (header files are themselves a bad thing)."
(Terrence Parr, the creator of ANTLR, http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/course/652/lectures/language.impl.overview.pdf )

One of the reasons it's not done yet for C++ is, I
think, preprocessing. With preprocessing it's very,
very difficult to support correct refactoring.

--
Dmitry Skavish
-----------------------
Boston, MA, USA
tel. +1 781 370-6909
http://www.jzox.com
http://www.flashgap.com

0

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