Idea for .NET?

Hi there,

Noticed intellij are advertising for a C# developer on the .com website.

Does this mean a C# version of IDEA is coming?

geoff

30 comments

It's coming if we find those great C# developers :) Yes, we are planning
it.

--

Eugene Belyaev, CTO
JetBrains, Inc
http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"



"Geoff Soutter" <gst@soutter.org> wrote in message
news:b8eirj$kk7$1@is.intellij.net...

Hi there,

>

Noticed intellij are advertising for a C# developer on the .com website.

>

Does this mean a C# version of IDEA is coming?

>

geoff

>


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On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 02:54:34 +0400, Eugene Belyaev wrote:

It's coming if we find those great C# developers :) Yes, we are planning
it.


A c# based Idea, or c# support running out of the existing Java IDE?

Sounds good none the less...

0

Non of my business but why C#? I would think that C++ would have a much larger user base and more staying power?

0

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 02:41:11 +0000, charles decroes wrote:

Non of my business but why C#? I would think that C++ would have a much
larger user base and more staying power?


If its just extending the Java based Idea to support C# - I would hope
it'll be an open system to plugin in other lanugages.

Even if just syntax highlighting, it'd be cool to get highlighting for
perl/python from within Idea.

0

(C+)+ please.

charles decroes wrote:

Non of my business but why C#? I would think that C++ would have a much larger user base and more staying power?


0

I'm concerned about the possibility of JetBrains dividing their
attention between Java and C#. There's still much to be done with Idea
for Java -- the GUI designer, additional refactorings, etc. I'm afraid
that adding C# capabilities will decrease the resources that JetBrains
can devote to Java, leading to a slowdown in the development of Idea.

Dr. Scott Steinman

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On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 02:08:53 -0500, Scott Steinman wrote:

the GUI designer, additional refactorings, etc. I'm afraid that adding C#
capabilities will decrease the resources that JetBrains can devote to
Java, leading to a slowdown in the development of Idea.


That why I guess their hiring NEW people to work on the C# stuff - -if- it
happens.

Mark

0

i think c/c++ only or c/c++/c# is better.
but I think jetbrainers should do more things with java first.

0

I think the reason for going with C# is that C# is very similar to java in both syntax and type system. Also, they are both based on bytecode.
So it require much less effort to add a support for C# rather than for C++

0

That would be nice. Visual Studio .Net is totally crap.
I think they don't even know what refactorings are.

0

Aeros Lau wrote:

i think c/c++ only or c/c++/c# is better.


+10

but I think jetbrainers should do more things with java first.


+100

Jon

0

The possibility of IDEA for C# is quite interesting... especially if the Intellij team integrates with Mono (http://www.go-mono.com open source .Net initiative). That would lend a big hand to making .Net a cross-platform solution.

I'm a very devoted Java developer but I have been thinking in recent times that I should really broaden my skills outside of Java (imagine that!) to make sure I keep my options and it vision open.

And for you out there that are mixing c, c++, and c#: I think you are not well informed. C# has little to do with the C family of languages. Anyways.. it would certainly be cool if IDEA started supporting other languages, it would be even cooler if language support became pluggable!

Florian

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"Visual Studio .Net is totally crap".

Have you used Visual Studio .NET? I have used it and love it. OK, the source editor is not at the same level as the IDEA editor, but everything else about the tool(s) are simply streets ahead of anything else out there. Microsoft have always been good with development tools, and the new (soon to be released) Visual Studio .NET 2003 is simply a joy to use.

In my perminant job, I use IDEA all day long, but occasionaly have a chance to use C# using VS .NET. The biggest bonus that VS .NET adds over IDEA (or any other Java dev tool for that matter) is the online help - MSDN. This is simply the best online help available for ANY development system available today. The Java JDK help is appauling in contrast and has very few, if any, examples.

The visual form designer in VS is excellent, and the way in which web apps are developed and used (Add web reference) is so simple and powerful. You don't need third-party tools that don't quite fit into your development environment to perform all this stuff either.

Yes, I like IDEA, and the source editor is supurb. But, VS .NET is a better, more integrated development environment. And the best thing about it is the excellent online help.

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Well, actually I have VS.Net and use it sometimes. I'm saying that it is totally crap, because it has no support for refactorings. Even a simple "Rename"-refactoring is not available.

While it was quite normal for an IDE to have no support for refactorings some two years ago, today an IDE has to have it to be taken serious - at least by me.

There are some other things that add to the unusability of it:

  • Parameter-popup shows only one entry. You have to scroll to see the others.

  • Most errors in the code are detected only after an explicit compilation


Ok, the help function is very good and it's all nicely integrated, but without refactorings ....

I think the IntelliJ folks could do a better IDE for C#. One problem that they'll have, though, is that they'll have to fight VS.Net and that will be a hard fight.

Maybe making a plattform independent IDE that could also be used on Linux would give some sort of advantage here.

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On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:47:16 +0000, Mark Douglas wrote:

"Visual Studio .Net is totally crap".

Have you used Visual Studio .NET? I have used it and love it. OK, the
source editor is not at the same level as the IDEA editor, but everything
else about the tool(s) are simply streets ahead of anything else out
there. Microsoft have always been good with development tools, and the
new (soon to be released) Visual Studio .NET 2003 is simply a joy to use.


I have to use VS.NET lately for a project I'm working on, and whilst it
does have some nice features, it sorely lacks quite a few things I've
gotten used to over the years.

Most notably I find being able to nicely hyperlink between
classes/methods/variables, makes navigating code a breeze. And
refactoring tools, I know theres a refactoring plugin for VS.NET but I
hear its quite expensive. Doe the new VS.NET 2003 include refactoring
tools?

In my perminant job, I use IDEA all day long, but occasionaly have a
chance to use C# using VS .NET. The biggest bonus that VS .NET adds over
IDEA (or any other Java dev tool for that matter) is the online help -
MSDN.


I would agree with this, the integration of the online help is nice, the
same could easily be added to Idea I'm sure - once editor panes are
changed to support other editors.

The visual form designer in VS is excellent, and the way in which web apps
are developed and used (Add web reference) is so simple and powerful. You
don't need third-party tools that don't quite fit into your development
environment to perform all this stuff either.


Coming from Delphi - the form designer isn't that flash, or at least, not
excitingly new at least - but is quite nice to use. Although I miss the
lack of layout manager style. I've been doing a bit of UI design with
Glade, and its nice.

One thing I'm quite disgusted with with C# is, that all the GUI code is
-still- embedded inside your classes at a source level, similiar to java,
this is rather, ugly, disgusting, horrible, and just plain yecky. If one
did wish to argue for the GUI code staying CODE, it would be nice if it
was implemented in a superclass, and you're implementation code in a
subclass. Just makes things a bit cleaner.

Yes, I like IDEA, and the source editor is supurb. But, VS .NET is a
better, more integrated development environment. And the best thing about
it is the excellent online help.


Personally - I think I still prefer Idea to VS.NET.

Mark


--
...turn to the light - don't be frightened by the shadows it creates,
...turn to the light - turning away could be a terrible mistake
...dream theater - the great debate


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i read that intellij plan an open-api for the editor panes, because the need other editor panes for the gui-builder anyway. so it should be easy for intellij or the community to develop another, better help system!!! sadly i don't know in which post i read that the plan an open-api for the editors. maybe i remind me later ;)

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It's not the help system that I don't like, it's the actual content of the help. Most of the help is very thin on the ground, not really giving a detailed description of parameters etc. And a lack of examples really doesn't help very much.

I agree with everyone who mentioned the refactoring in IntelliJ - this is excellent, and VS .NET should certainly have something like this, but it doesn't. But my original comment about the source editor in IDEA sort of covers this. The editor is simply streets ahead of VS .NETs editor, but there is more to a development suite than the editor...

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is the help of idea or the help of the jdk worser than the help of VS.NET??? and is the help of VS.NET so good or is it the MSDN??? if you think that the MSDN-help is better than the JDK-help you cannot say that VS.NET help is better than IDEA help, because it couches to sun to support a better help with the jdk. if it's better what VS.NET makes with the MSDN-help post some feature requests in the tracker for this things you think VS.NET is better!?

0

Well, if your everyday activity is GUI development than VS.Net has a little advantage over IDEA. But if you work most of the time with the code, it's not better than notepad. Maybe integrated help is a good thing, but it eats about 1.5G of your disk space and can you imagine keeping such a big thing in sync. Even for Microsoft it is a hard task. We have a small development group that work in embedded environment. I have noticed that if they need to look up a definition of any function, they use google most of the time. :)
I want to say good luck to Intellij guys with this challenge, don't forget what happened to others who tried to step into M$ land (Borland almost died).

/kesh

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Mark Douglas wrote:

It's not the help system that I don't like, it's the actual content of the help. Most of the help is very thin on the ground, not really giving a detailed description of parameters etc. And a lack of examples really doesn't help very much.

I agree with everyone who mentioned the refactoring in IntelliJ - this is excellent, and VS .NET should certainly have something like this, but it doesn't. But my original comment about the source editor in IDEA sort of covers this. The editor is simply streets ahead of VS .NETs editor, but there is more to a development suite than the editor...


I've found javaalmanac.com to be a really nice tool when examples are
required. There was a 3 part series of books which was really handy but
I can't remember it's name now... it included examples and extended
descriptions for pretty much all the core API's.

Regards,

Glen




0

Mark Douglas <jiveadmin@jetbrains.com> wrote:

It's not the help system that I don't like, it's the actual content of the
help. Most of the help is very thin on the ground, not really giving a
detailed description of parameters etc. And a lack of examples really
doesn't help very much.


Also: If you open the source of the JDK classes you'll see that most of
them are terribly formatted. There are a lot of red bars at the scroll
bar indicating wrong javadoc tags (i.e. misspelled @throws). There are
also quite a few functions where they don't specify what happens if you
pass null as object reference which may be technically valid but I would
consider bad style.

Big parts of the JDK documentation require IMHO a rework with a lot more
examples. I have never really used the IDEA help so that I can't say
much about that.

Dirk Dittert

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C++ is too syntactically complicated (especially considering preprocessor
stuff) to really have something idea-like that works effectively and
quickly. Java and C# make available all the necessary metadata for classes
as well, easily discoverable programatically, which isn't the case in any
standard way with C+. A language like C+ just doens't lend itself to an
IDEA-like editor, imho.

"charles decroes" <spam@decroes.com> wrote in message
news:5716666.1051411271740.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...

Non of my business but why C#? I would think that C++ would have a much

larger user base and more staying power?


0

I have to disagree on the help issue. I'm using VS.NET almost daily and I
have found the code samples often very unsatisfying. For simple things the
code samples work reasonably well but in those cases I don't need code
samples (method signatures suffice). In the more complex cases (of which the
.NET FCL has far more than the Java class library by the way, which is
not a good thing) the MSDN code samples often fall far short of what I
would expect. I frequently have to resort to playing around with the
class/method to figure out how it really works. This is very time consuming.
Whenever I can I try to preserve what I've learned with some unit tests.
Anyway, my point is that in Java, if the JavaDoc is not sufficient, I can
look at the source code to figure it out. Admittedly, this is a last resort
but in many cases much faster than prodding around.

The bottom line is that the help available in the Microsoft world has not
been more helpful to me than anything I've experienced in the Java world.
This was especially true for the pre-.NET help, which really sucked, but
still holds true today.

My 2 cents.
Thomas

PS: Although I am also concerned about IntelliJ's attention being divided
between Java and C# it would really be awesome to have a C# version IDEA.
I've been "crawling around" with VS.NET long enough. I'd like to "run" in C#
as I do in Java...




"Mark Douglas" <jiveadmin@jetbrains.com> wrote in message
news:22486527.1051519636911.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...

"Visual Studio .Net is totally crap".

>

Have you used Visual Studio .NET? I have used it and love it. OK, the

source editor is not at the same level as the IDEA editor, but everything
else about the tool(s) are simply streets ahead of anything else out there.
Microsoft have always been good with development tools, and the new (soon to
be released) Visual Studio .NET 2003 is simply a joy to use.
>

In my perminant job, I use IDEA all day long, but occasionaly have a

chance to use C# using VS .NET. The biggest bonus that VS .NET adds over
IDEA (or any other Java dev tool for that matter) is the online help - MSDN.
This is simply the best online help available for ANY development system
available today. The Java JDK help is appauling in contrast and has very
few, if any, examples.
>

The visual form designer in VS is excellent, and the way in which web apps

are developed and used (Add web reference) is so simple and powerful. You
don't need third-party tools that don't quite fit into your development
environment to perform all this stuff either.
>

Yes, I like IDEA, and the source editor is supurb. But, VS .NET is a

better, more integrated development environment. And the best thing about
it is the excellent online help.
>



0

I guess you mean the following book, although I only know of two volumes:

The Java Developers Almanac 1.4, Vol 1&2 by Patrick Chan
Vol. 1: ISBN 0-201-75280-8
Vol. 2: ISBN 0-201-76810-0

They do really include a lot of example code and a good cross reference section (which class is a return type of what method etc.)

Regards,
Wolfram.

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BTW, IDEA is listed as a competitive product for Visual Studio .NET 2003 with other (mainly Java) IDEs:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/pricing.aspx


"Robert F. Beeger" <jiveadmin@jetbrains.com> wrote in message news:4391981.1051446077794.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...

That would be nice. Visual Studio .Net is totally crap.
I think they don't even know what refactorings are.



0

Well...

You know you've made in IT when M$ considers you "competition"... I just hope they don't get it into their minds to put a law-suit on IDEA for some rediculous reason like they did to lindows.com.

Florian Hehlen

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Wolfram Saringer wrote:

> They do really include a lot of example code and
> a good cross reference section (which class is
> a return type of what method etc.)

It inspired this feature request :
http://www.intellij.net/tracker/idea/viewSCR?publicId=10576

0

http://www.borland.com/csharpbuilder/demo/CsharpBuilde
DemoShort.htm


This is nothing new it's C++, J, etc. Builder but now for C#. The demo is centered on visual development, which never really interested me. I'm always doing my GUIs by hand.

They left out the interesting parts. The editor is only shown for a very short time. They even did not mention refactorings.

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