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You sure make a lot of assumptions.

.. and you don't? .... :)

+Do you not trust Jetbrains to not
include whatever crap code people send in?
Do you not trust Jetbrains to keep doing the fantastic job they are doing?
Do you think open sourcing IDEA implies that Jetbrains would stop
working on it?+


+Do you think the IDEA source is so brittle that one bugfix from a
stranger would break everything, and be impossible to test in the same
way as a bugfix from a Jetbrains employee?+

Time. Time. Time. And for the final time. Time.

+May i remind you of Sturgeon's law, "Ninety percent of everything is crap."
That is as true with open source as it is with closed source.+

And may I remind you of something my mother always says:

"Too many cooks, spoil the broth ...."

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Rayz wrote:

And may I remind you of something my mother always says:

"Too many cooks, spoil the broth ...."


What a modernist statement!
We usually say "Let's invite some more cooks, it'll make the broth more
interesting."

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What a modernist statement!

Well, I've never been one to believe that 'trendy newness' means 'better'.

+We usually say "Let's invite some more cooks, it'll make the broth more
interesting."+

And when folk say 'that tastes really ... um ... interesting', they usually mean 'I think I've just been poisoned .....'

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Rayz wrote:


Time. Time. Time. And for the final time. Time.

If it took too much time to include a bugfix, don't you think Jetbrains
would refrain from doing so?

> And may I remind you of something my mother always says:


"Too many cooks, spoil the broth ...."


Jetbrains are the only cooks, and users supplying patches have no room
in this poor analogy.

/Kreiger



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Well, in hindsight it might have been a mistake to not directly respond to Dave's question. I fear that is what caused his irrational hatred for me.

I have no idea what makes you think I have a hatred for you, rational or not. I have a perfectly rational distaste for open source zealotry, for all the usual reasons people have a distaste for any zealotry. I also have some antipathy for people whose arguments boil down to "My idea could work, and all of the hundred problems that everyone is pointing out don't have to happen" without giving any insights into how the problems might be avoided or their idea made to work. You may be right, but you've given absolutely no reason for anyone to believe you are. Finally, I do have a little bit of contempt for people who immediately assume that anyone who disagrees with them simply doesn't understand, and that their experiences can be safely ignored. That's gutter argumentation, and incredibly rude. But hatred, no, you haven't done anything to have earned that.

--Dave Griffith

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Dave Griffith wrote:

I have no idea what makes you think I have a hatred for you, rational
or not. I have a perfectly rational distaste for open source
zealotry, for all the usual reasons people have a distaste for
any zealotry. I also have some antipathy for people whose
arguments boil down to "My idea could work, and all of the hundred
problems that everyone is pointing out don't have to happen"
without giving any insights into how the problems might be avoided or
their idea made to work. You may be right, but you've given
absolutely no reason for anyone to believe you are. Finally, I do
have a little bit of contempt for people who immediately assume that
anyone who disagrees with them simply doesn't understand, and that
their experiences can be safely ignored. That's gutter
argumentation, and incredibly rude. But hatred, no, you haven't done
anything to have earned that.


I did not expect to convince anyone, and that wasn't my intention.
I stated my prediction, and then it felt like people thought i was
attacking something, be it IDEA, Jetbrains, or whatever.
Also, people kept making simple mistakes like conflating "open source"
with "non-commercial" or "abandoned sourceforge-project", and asking for
analogies like "Windows vs Linux", and i felt i had to avoid these
quagmires of holy wars that never lead anywhere.

I did not realize at the time how rude i was. I should just have shut up
after my first post.

I'm sorry for this, but i was also absolutely shocked by the ferocity
with which you insulted open source fans, and indirectly me. I would
never have expected it in this community, and especially not from you.

/Kreiger



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I'm sorry for this, but i was also absolutely shocked by the ferocity with which you insulted open source fans, and indirectly me.

Oh what a degraded and pathetic age we live in, where my few sincere words count as ferocity. But seriously, I have great respect for many open source projects, and am indeed a satisfied user. Open source developers, I have respect for mostly in proportion to the value of their output, just like closed source developers. Open source "fans", I will admit to having no respect for, for the reasons I've already discussed. You've done nothing to dispell those reasons, and have indeed confirmed a few of them. There's a reason why my plugins are explicitly public domain rather than under OSI-approved licensed. Frankly, it's to avoid the stench.

--Dave Griffith

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Dave Griffith wrote:

There's a reason why my plugins are explicitly public domain
rather than under OSI-approved licensed.


Public domain is perfectly fine by the OSI, although:
"The opinion on the OSI license approval discussion list is that it's no
longer possible to release your work to the public domain in the USA.
Technically speaking, the copyright always stays with you even if you
don't claim it anywhere."

Frankly, it's to avoid the stench.


And you wonder where the perception of your words as ferocious comes from?

(I guess you won't read this, that I'm kill-filed or something - after
all, I've never contributed anything to IDEA. I just came out of the
lurker woodworks to clarify what I perceive as misconceptions regarding
free, open source software.)

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+I guess you won't read this, that I'm kill-filed or something - after all, I've never contributed anything to IDEA. +

I almost added "whiny" and "self-pitying" to my description of open source advocates I have come across. Then I thought, "no, there must be some counter-examples to those, right?". Judging by the comments on this thread, looks like I might have been wrong.

If you're going to have convictions, for god sakes have the courage of them. No one, I repeat, no one, has attempted to shut either you or Krieger down, nor has anyone, including me, attacked either of you personally. We've disagreed with some things he proposed, and presented some counterarguments against them, most of which have been ignored or magically declared irrelevant. Krieger misrepresented his interest in the IDEA source, and got his panties in bunch when he was called on it. If any of this counts as an attack in your mind, then all I can tell you is to grow a pair.

--Dave Griffith

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Dave Griffith wrote:

I almost added "whiny" and "self-pitying" to my description of open
source advocates I have come across. Then I thought, "no, there
must be some counter-examples to those, right?". Judging by
the comments on this thread, looks like I might have been wrong.

If you're going to have convictions, for god sakes have the courage
of them. No one, I repeat, no one, has attempted to shut either you
or Krieger down, nor has anyone, including me, attacked either of you
personally. We've disagreed with some things he proposed, and
presented some counterarguments against them, most of which have been
ignored or magically declared irrelevant. Krieger misrepresented his
interest in the IDEA source, and got his panties in bunch when he was
called on it. If any of this counts as an attack in your mind, then
all I can tell you is to grow a pair.


I must say that i enjoyed reading this, for its ingenious style. ;)

/Kreiger

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Sunnan wrote:

What a modernist statement!
We usually say "Let's invite some more cooks, it'll make the broth more
interesting."


The problem is - we only have a microwave, but there is an old pot-billy
stove out back...

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Hmm, I'm not sure that either of those projects are really good comparisons. Eclipse I don't consider commercial since IBM don't make any money from it, only put it in. MySQL is a better example, but the problem is that I'm willing to bet that they make the majority of their money from consulting rather than license fees, and I don't think there's the same scope for consulting with IDEA.

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Rayz wrote:

And when folk say 'that tastes really ... um ... interesting', they
usually mean 'I think I've just been poisoned .....'


Well, for some dishes, maybe a more controlled process works better. In
those cases, you still have the customer satisfaction argument of having
the source freely available.

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Dave Griffith wrote:

I almost added "whiny" and "self-pitying" to my description of open
source advocates I have come across.


It's been a bit frustrating reading these exchanges consisting partly of
uninformed, knee-jerk, generalizing responses. (And you haven't been the
worst culprit, I'm aware.)

I can't help feeling at least a little bad (don't know if it counts as
"self-pity") when the only portion of all my posts you've ever replied
to was a short, parenthesized aside paragraph - a paragraph that I
consider, upon re-reading, to be pretty humble.

And I can't help feeling bad when you:

  • Seemlingy equate a program being open sourced as being "killed"

  • Call any association with free software or open source "a stench"


...and when you completely ignore that I've pointed out:

  • That the OSI does accept Public Domain (with a caveat) (then again,

this might be bloody obvious)

  • The idea that a very large group of unpaid developers (kooks as

they might be in the eyes of some) are less likely to contribute to a
proprietary product, even if the contribution is technically possible
(e.g. via a plugin system)

  • Some drawbacks of going open source (mainly, problems with selling

licenses)

Krieger[sic] misrepresented his interest in the IDEA source, and got his
panties in bunch when he was called on it. If any of this counts as
an attack in your mind, then all I can tell you is to grow a pair.


And I can add "sexist" to my description of you. Enjoy your coffee.

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>

  • Seemlingy equate a program being open sourced as being "killed"


Dude, it's JBuilder. It's been shedding users like mad, and is technically inferior to at least two open-source and two low-cost commercial products. Declaring it "open source" is like saying someone resigned "to spend more time with their family". JBuilder is resigning to spend more time with it's ancestors. It's dead, dead, dead, just like most other products that commercial companies have decided to open source rather than EOLing.

>* Call any association with free software or open source "a stench"

No, I called open-source advocacy a stench. Where I come from, being thought a humorless, arrogant busibody who spends their time telling quite successful professionals how to run their business is not particularly attractive. Wonder why? Open source products and developers I like just fine.

>* That the OSI does accept Public Domain (with a caveat)

I didn't ignore it, I just don't care. Indeed, not caring about such things is mostly my point. If I cared, people might think I was, well, an open-source advocate. Not quite as bad as being thought a Scientologist or Congressman, but worth avoiding in polite company.

>And I can add "sexist" to my description of you.

Dude, it's the internet. I have no idea what gender you are and, barring extensive neurosurgery, I really doubt I could make myself care. For that matter, you've got no real evidence of my gender. If accusations of sexism are as far as you need to go to feel morally superior to me, I'll make it easier on you. Open IDEA. Go to Settings (it's the little wrench)/ Plugins (the little power cord). A surprisingly poorly laid-out little panel will come up. In the table, select "InspectionGadgets" and "Intention Power Pack". If they are present, you might also want to click "Metrics Reloaded", "File Status Bar" and "Generate Collection Methods". Then hit that funny little button at the top of the panel with the red X. The warm glow of not having to depend upon my sexist work will keep you cozy all day.

No. Don't thank me. I'm a giver.

--Dave Griffith

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I think an Open Source version of IDEA is bad idea.

Perhaps spliting the product between a scaled down version that was OS and a pro version that was not might staunch Eclipse's adaption rate. But a full blown OS version doesn't make any sense to me and of the arguments above I managed to get through above none held any sway.

However, I am concerned that Idea won't survive the "freeness" of Eclipse. It is not really a level playing field, Eclipse is actually far from free, IBM and other companies have spent a lot of money developing it contributing a lot resources to it. IBM did this because Eclipse is a "complement product" that IBM uses to drive new customers to their platform. See: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/StrategyLetterV.html

JB develops Idea as their Feature Attraction (one of their primary products) not some give away to get people into the theater. The quality of both Eclipse and Idea reflect this. Idea is simply better, but Eclipse is good and when viewed by the bean counters who don't actually use the tools, or by developers who don't value the quality of their tools enough, it often comes out as "good enough."

As a consultant I work in lots of shops that now either use Eclipse exclusively or almost exclusively and hear the same thing over and over:. "Yeah, I've heard of Idea, but is not free, right? Eclipse is decent and free." It is a tough one to beat. I feel sorry for the full timers how have seen me use Idea and covet it. When I ask why they don't get a copy, they say the company won't buy them one since Eclipse is free. This is just penny-wise and pound foolish. By this measure, we should all be working on 15 inch monitors. However, making Idea free won't fix the problem. It only means that JB will lose what I imagine is big part of their income while the product's cutting edge greatness gets duller and duller, supported by a community that doesn't have the talent or at the very least the resources full time JB developers have.

Spencer

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Dave Griffith wrote:

Dude, it's JBuilder. It's been shedding users like mad, and is
technically inferior to at least two open-source and two low-cost
commercial products. Declaring it "open source" is like saying
someone resigned "to spend more time with their family". JBuilder is
resigning to spend more time with it's ancestors. It's dead, dead,
dead, just like most other products that commercial companies have
decided to open source rather than EOLing.


I can accept this; but my first reading was that you equated being open
sourced with being killed. If this turns out to be a misreading, I'm
relieved.

I've seen JBuilder in action. It's not very good.

Where I come from, being thought a humorless, arrogant busibody who
spends their time telling quite successful professionals how to run
their business is not particularly attractive.


I guess we come from totally different places, then.

The warm glow of not having to depend upon my sexist work will keep
you cozy all day.


I neither use nor depend on InspectionGadgets, but I'm not sure it's in
itself sexist, just because you appear to be.

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