[EVALUATION] - E05 - Community / Community Feedback

The community has in general a very positive and helpful behaviour.

However, in some threads some typical reactions start.

Some community members complain, whilst writing fully off-topic -
decreasing this way the analytical value of the discussions.

-

I ask everyone to use this thread here to post any complaints or
comments which target my person, my evaluation style and processes etc.

This way:

  • their opinions were publicized

  • the evaluation threads were kept clean

  • any reader can filter this thread here if he's not intrested in such

stuff.

[note that you can always filter my threads, too. I do not write in
other threads.]

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

29 comments

This reminds me of an old joke (no pun intended, just for the request
for opinions on you...):

-


A guy is told by a doctor that he is terminally ill and has a month to live.

The guy says "I would like to get a second opinion". "You're ugly too",
says the doctor.
-



I share your opinion that every time a discussion goes personal or goes
into religious IDE wars it misses the point.

Cheers,
Amnon

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

The community has in general a very positive and helpful behaviour.

However, in some threads some typical reactions start.

Some community members complain, whilst writing fully off-topic -
decreasing this way the analytical value of the discussions.

-

I ask everyone to use this thread here to post any complaints or
comments which target my person, my evaluation style and processes etc.

This way:

  • their opinions were publicized

  • the evaluation threads were kept clean

  • any reader can filter this thread here if he's not intrested in such

stuff.

[note that you can always filter my threads, too. I do not write in
other threads.]

.

0


Is there any chance that these evals will eventually address the features, usability, or performance of IDEA, in the context of it being a Java development environment (as opposed to it being a WYSIWYG HTML editor, or an operating system, or a microwave oven)? Doing so entertainingly and well would go a long way to helping improve your reputation as (sorry to be the bearer of bad news here) a clueless spam artist.

Don't thank me. I'm a giver.

--Dave Griffith

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ROFL

You just made my day. Thanks. :)

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Dave Griffith wrote:

>Is there any chance that these evals will eventually address the features, usability, or performance of IDEA, in the context of it being a Java development environment (as opposed to it being a WYSIWYG HTML editor, or an operating system, or a microwave oven)? Doing so entertainingly and well would go a long way to helping improve your reputation as (sorry to be the bearer of bad news here) a clueless spam artist.
>
>Don't thank me. I'm a giver.
>
>--Dave Griffith

>

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It is my feeling that your "efficient" style of writing makes you come off as a non-emotional psychopath marketing/management droid.
This makes people uncomfortable, which makes communication inefficient.

This is just the feeling i got from reading the threads, no harm intended.

/Kreiger



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While I admire your policy of "sticking to the facts" (I personally
dislike bringing politics into a technical discussion), your style of
sticking to the facts is brusque to the point of rudeness. Please note
that I'm not saying that you are rude, just that your posts read that way.

People do not react well to this as you have seen and, as intelligent a
person as you seem to be, I'm surprised that you have not yet figured
this out and changed your style so that you may communicate more
effectively.

Ciao,
Gordon

--
Gordon Tyler (Software Developer)
Quest Software <http://www.quest.com/>
260 King Street East, Toronto, Ontario M5A 4L5, Canada
Voice: (416) 933-5046 | Fax: (416) 933-5001

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Gordon Tyler wrote:

While I admire your policy of "sticking to the facts" (I personally
dislike bringing politics into a technical discussion), your style of
sticking to the facts is brusque to the point of rudeness. Please note
that I'm not saying that you are rude, just that your posts read that
way.


I understand.

[general remark: thanks to all for reacting on the plea to write within
this thread!]

People do not react well to this as you have seen and, as intelligent a
person as you seem to be, I'm surprised that you have not yet figured
this out and changed your style so that you may communicate more
effectively.


My communication is efficient, as I finally get what I like to get
, including
an picture of the people within a project or around a product.

-

But more importantly:

"
Mastering a Complex System depends on Simplification.

Social Skills Increase Complexity.

Complexity Reduces Simplicity.

=> {Avoid Usage of "Social Skills"}
"
source:
- E10 - Summary: NetBeans is NOT open source, Sun is...
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=867428&listName=nbusers

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Christoffer "Kreiger" Hammarström wrote:

It is my feeling that your "efficient" style of writing makes you come
off as a non-emotional psychopath marketing/management droid.


Let's agree on "non-emotional marketing/management droid".

This makes people uncomfortable, which makes communication inefficient.


This is possibly intended.

This is just the feeling i got from reading the threads, no harm intended.


your welcome.

please see my reply to "Gordon Tyler" for further details.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

0

I suspect you will find that increases in complexity will be more than compensated for by the fact that people will take what you say much more seriously. No matter how technically correct you are, if people don't listen to you, you're not communicating effectively or efficiently.

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Dave Griffith wrote:

Is there any chance that these evals will eventually address the
features, usability, or performance of IDEA, in the context of it
being a Java development environment


I've opend the E06 thread, but the evaluation is very short [at least
for now].

(as opposed to it being a
WYSIWYG HTML editor, or an operating system, or a microwave oven)?


"IntelliJ IDEA", "most intelligent", "J2EE development" and finally the
"status of competitive products" make the requirement "WYSIWYG HTML
editor plug-in" absolute valid.

You should accept this fact and contribute your part to convince
jetBrains, thus you favorite IDE becomes stronger, whilst providing an
(at least optional) plug-in.



I don't understand the microwave part, but the operating system makes sense.

Will think about this.

Doing so entertainingly and well would go a long way to helping
improve your reputation as (sorry to be the bearer of bad news here)
a clueless spam artist.


I am a clueless spam artist.

For people which like to see me this way.

Don't thank me. I'm a giver.


ok, Mr. Giver.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Colin Fleming wrote:

I suspect you will find that increases in complexity will be more
than compensated for by the fact that people will take what you say
much more seriously.


"mastering complexity" is my priority...

No matter how technically correct you are, if
people don't listen to you, you're not communicating effectively or
efficiently.


..not that all people listen to me.

A few - or even one - is enouth.

Sterile, precise, fact oriented.

-

Time is running.

So terribly fast.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias

Sterile, precise, fact oriented.
Time is running.
So terribly fast.



This is the wrong tone for these forums, or you are in the wrong place
if this is your only available tone.
This is not a board of directors, in 3-piece suits,
this is a community of people who like IDEA, and are trying to improve
it, and communicate informally, on a daily base, sometimes for years,.

Loosen up man, and we'll listen to what you have to say, if you say it
our way, and if it's interesting.

Alain

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Alain Ravet wrote:

Ilias

>> Sterile, precise, fact oriented.
>> Time is running.
>> So terribly fast.


This is the wrong tone for these forums, or you are in the wrong place
if this is your only available tone.
This is not a board of directors, in 3-piece suits,
this is a community of people who like IDEA, and are trying to improve
it, and communicate informally, on a daily base, sometimes for years,.

Loosen up man, and we'll listen to what you have to say, if you say it
our way, and if it's interesting.


I'm sorry that you think this way.

But I'm happy that some people accept me like I am.

-

You've maken me sad, a little sad.

I remember that those 10 years will possibly not be enouth (if i have them).

I remember that I'll shortly loose my internet-connection.

-

I go out now.

a good night to all.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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I think it is already too late. I'm to the point, I am ready to mark
all his threads as read and move on. The whole point of these forums is
communication and he seems to have more fun conversing with his calculator.

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Alain Ravet wrote:

Ilias

>
>> Sterile, precise, fact oriented.
>> Time is running.
>> So terribly fast.
>
>
>

This is the wrong tone for these forums, or you are in the wrong place
if this is your only available tone.
This is not a board of directors, in 3-piece suits,
this is a community of people who like IDEA, and are trying to improve
it, and communicate informally, on a daily base, sometimes for years,.

>

Loosen up man, and we'll listen to what you have to say, if you say it
our way, and if it's interesting.

>

Alain

0

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

My communication is efficient, as I finally get what I like to get
, including
an picture of the people within a project or around a product.


I question the efficiency of your communication since it seems to
immediately trigger confusion and/or hostility. You can't possibly
regard that as efficient.

"
Mastering a Complex System depends on Simplification.

Social Skills Increase Complexity.

Complexity Reduces Simplicity.

=> {Avoid Usage of "Social Skills"}
"


Couching it as a pseudo-mathematical proof doesn't make it true. Humans
are social creatures and thus in order to interact with them you have to
utilise "social skills". I am not an inherently social person but I have
learned that some adherence to the niceties of conversation and personal
interaction make communication much easier.

Efficiency is not paramount. I think you may be suffering from a case of
"premature optimization".

Ciao,
Gordon

--
Gordon Tyler (Software Developer)
Quest Software <http://www.quest.com/>
260 King Street East, Toronto, Ontario M5A 4L5, Canada
Voice: (416) 933-5046 | Fax: (416) 933-5001

0

I think you may be suffering from a case of "premature
optimization".


Congratulations, you just made my evening :-). Comedy genius.

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Gordon Tyler wrote:

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>> My communication is efficient, as I finally get what I like to get
>> , including
>> an picture of the people within a project or around a product.

=> {picture of the people}

> I question the efficiency of your communication since it seems to

immediately trigger confusion and/or hostility. You can't possibly
regard that as efficient.


of course I can.

"confusion and/or hostility" and other reactions are part of the
"picture of the people" which I like to get.

>> "
>> Mastering a Complex System depends on Simplification.
>>
>> Social Skills Increase Complexity.
>>
>> Complexity Reduces Simplicity.
>>
>> => {Avoid Usage of "Social Skills"}
>> "


Couching it as a pseudo-mathematical proof doesn't make it true.


It is true

Humans
are social creatures and thus in order to interact with them you have to
utilise "social skills".


not with all.

I am not an inherently social person but I have
learned that some adherence to the niceties of conversation and personal
interaction make communication much easier.


ok

Efficiency is not paramount.


in context of a software production system, it is.

in context of my future long-term-projects, it is.

I think you may be suffering from a case of
"premature optimization".



Ciao,
Gordon


.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

Christoffer "Kreiger" Hammarström wrote:

>> It is my feeling that your "efficient" style of writing makes you come
>> off as a non-emotional psychopath marketing/management droid.


Let's agree on "non-emotional marketing/management droid".

>> This makes people uncomfortable, which makes communication inefficient.


This is possibly intended.


That's fine. Just be careful so you don't project yourself on the community.

If you approach a community radiating attitude perceived as hostile, don't be surprised if it is reflected back.

/Kreiger



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Christoffer "Kreiger" Hammarström wrote:

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>> Christoffer "Kreiger" Hammarström wrote:
>>
>>> It is my feeling that your "efficient" style of writing makes you
>>> come off as a non-emotional psychopath marketing/management droid.
>>
>> Let's agree on "non-emotional marketing/management droid".
>>
>>> This makes people uncomfortable, which makes communication
>>> inefficient.
>>
>> This is possibly intended.


That's fine. Just be careful so you don't project yourself on the
community.

If you approach a community radiating attitude perceived as hostile,
don't be surprised if it is reflected back.


I'm not surprised by any actions taken by a human or by a group of humans.

The action:

Perceiving/intepreting a communication approach
as hostile, to justify hostile reflection [emotional, insulting,
twisting, ...]...

...is nothing special.

Weak and instable personalities tend to react this way.

Those personalities were irrelevant to me.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

0

>I'm not surprised by any actions taken by a human or by a group of humans.

That may be just about the saddest sentence I've ever read.

--Dave Griffith

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Dave Griffith wrote:

>>I'm not surprised by any actions taken by a human or by a group of humans.
>>
>>
>
>That may be just about the saddest sentence I've ever read.
>

>


Reality is sad: Rwanda, Croatia, Irak Darfur, W reelection, ... and the
list goes on and on: anybody can do (almost) anything, if that's where
live draws him/her. Once you know that, you're less surprised by life,
and by people.

I must say, though, that I'm surprised by Ilias insistance (is that a
word?) in this forum.

Alain

0

Alain Ravet wrote:

Dave Griffith wrote:

>>> I'm not surprised by any actions taken by a human or by a group of
>>> humans.
>>
>> That may be just about the saddest sentence I've ever read.


Reality is sad: Rwanda, Croatia, Irak Darfur, W reelection, ... and the
list goes on and on: anybody can do (almost) anything, if that's where
live draws him/her. Once you know that, you're less surprised by life,
and by people.


you have understood the direction of my sad sentence.

I must say, though, that I'm surprised by Ilias insistance (is that a
word?) in this forum.


"insistence"

I just evaluate if JetBrains, IntelliJ IDEA, and the community around it
can backup my long-term software-projects.

why are you surprised?

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>>>> I'm not surprised by any actions taken by a human or by a group of
>>>> humans.


e.g. collective publically facts-twisting, whilst applying censorship to
stop further rejoinders:

- Mike Milinkovich (Eclipse Foundation Director)
Censors Forums
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/ff9ba79be816921d

-

Act Against Censorship.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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To all good things there comes an end.

End-of-topic. (please)

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Maas van den Berg wrote:

To all good things there comes an end.

End-of-topic. (please)


thank you for following my plea.

why don't you simply filter the threads which you don't like?

-

Of course this evaluation will end, but I'm not yet ready (e.g. due to
some missing answers of jetBrains about the licensing, thread E03).

And i've not yet decided if I move on to Borland or stay temporarily
with jetBrains.

So, please have a little bit patience.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

The community has in general a very positive and helpful behaviour.



Please respekt the filters of other persons.

Avoid opening new threads subjecting my person.

Please help Ilias Lazaridis to go away and evaluate better products
http://www.intellij.net/forums/thread.jsp?forum=27&thread=122790&tstart=0&trange=15

[note that you can always filter my threads, too. I do not write in
other threads.]


.

--
http://lazaridis.com

0

Well JetBrains is busy developers and it takes time to read whole exisitng threads, in new one we will help you and them to meet and solve your(Ilias not JB) problems.

I'm sure that they were first who filter your messages by the way.

TIA,
Dmitry

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Dmitry Kashin wrote:

Well JetBrains is busy developers and it takes time to read whole
exisitng threads, in new one we will help you and them to meet and
solve your(Ilias not JB) problems.


They (JB) are aware about the open question.

I'm sure that they were first who filter your messages by the way.


One more reason to respect filters.

TIA, Dmitry


.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias,
But they doesn't know how this answers important to us. You'll see if communicate with JB in constructive way you always recieve response.
Rob Harwood from the beginning try to discuss with you but now looks like he also understand that your Evaluation not of IDEA or JetBrains products but of another community members patience.

Do you think if you keep communicate such way and IDEA accept your tests you'll fill comfortable here?

TIA,
Dmitry

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Dmitry Kashin wrote:

Ilias, But they doesn't know how this answers important to us. You'll
see if communicate with JB in constructive way you always recieve
response. Rob Harwood from the beginning try to discuss with you but
now looks like he also understand that your Evaluation not of IDEA or
JetBrains products but of another community members patience.

Do you think if you keep communicate such way and IDEA accept your
tests you'll fill comfortable here?

TIA, Dmitry


I'm sorry.

I cannot invest more time in discussing the same things.

Please accept me, ignore me, or filter me.

But please do not try to change me.

You just waste your time.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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