[EVALUATION] - E02 - Open Source Technology Stack

I like to find some java technology, which is supported within IDEA.

The technology should fulfill the following requirements:

http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html

any suggestions are welcome.

you may think now: what has this to do with IntelliJ IDEA?

The answer:

If jetbrains supports one open-source technology stacks, which fulfills the defined requirements, it could increase it's userbase.

Personally I would use a commercial IDE (after some bad experiences with the open-source ones, see ), as long as the stack on which my application runs is based on open-source.

The goal for jetbrains would be to select, package, stabelize and support a specific open-source-stack with it's commercial IDE (possibly with a seperate commercial support option).

JetBrains customers would have the benefit of a commercial product combined with the benefit of an open-source-stack.

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Although a commercial product, jetbrains could adopt many of the suggested constructs of jamBeans:

http://lazaridis.com/case/ide/index.html

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The NetBeans Community failing to define a stack:

- JAVA + NetBeans + ??? = easy & scalable production!
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=848269&listName=nbusers

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Evaluations



Eclipse Evaluation Summary:
(follow the links/instruction within this message)
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=851688&listName=nbusers

NetBeans Evaluation Summary:
- E12 - The NetBeans Open Source Lie
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/browse_frm/thread/452ff4de33491a34/633f0a55e520ef24

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http://lazaridis.com

18 comments

Sorry Ilias but you've completely lost me (not that it takes too much to do that, lol). Sounds like you are just trying to drum up business for your consultancy services which is NOT what these forums are here for.

Your ideas seem OK, though nothing revolutionary, but so long as IDEA fully supports Java standards it can already be used with pretty virtually any standards-based open source movement that you can think of with a little bit of thought from the user.

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Sorry Ilias but you've completely lost me (not that
it takes too much to do that, lol).


cu!

Sounds like you
are just trying to drum up business for your
consultancy services which is NOT what these forums
are here for.


I try to use JetBrains for a real project.

For this I evaluate the product and the efficiency of the surrounding company and community.

I've worked very hard thus a presence within a forum results in an efficient publicity for my consultancy services.

I see no need to hide my website to eliminate this side-effect.

This is especially true as major parts of the documents on my website document usable processes.

Your ideas seem OK, though nothing revolutionary,


not the 'ideas', but the overall implementation of those 'ideas' (within a software-production-system) results in being 'revolutionary'.

The system governance which will understand exceptional evolution speed.

As an example, the JetBrains LOP efforts have no chance without implementation of my 'ideas'

but
so long as IDEA fully supports Java standards it can
already be used with pretty virtually any
standards-based open source movement that you can
think of with a little bit of thought from the user.


I am not intrested in the masses.

Just in a compact stack which fulfills my requirements, as defined in my message

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http://lazaridis.com

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I read all your posts through a number of times, the problem is that no matter how many times I read it still doesn't make a great deal of sense.

As I said in my previous post, you can use IDEA to work pretty much any way YOU want to and most of your concepts can already be achieved to some extent within the IDE.

Please don't take mistake my posts are aggressive towards you (I'm assuming the rude and rather arrogant tone of your reply was because you misunderstood the purpose of my initial response, which I have to admit I did not articulate very well myself), I would meerly like you to elaborate on exactly what you are asking so I can understand it fully.

I read your website earlier, because your posts alone told me nothing, and the concepts are much clearer there, however I'm still trying to understand what exactly you are asking JetBrains to do??

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  • * Simple Class

o create an class (or component)
o declare this class as persistent

  • Simple GUI

o create default edit, new, display html-pages
o run & debug application

  • Simple Web GUI

o create default edit, new, display html-pages
o deploy the application on local server
o debug the application on local server

  • Simple deployment

o deploy the application on remote tomcat
o debug the application on remote tomcat

  • Complex updates

o incremental update to the application
+ add new classes
+ alter existent classes
+ automated persistency-update
+ automated redeployment

Of the categories on your website, these are the ones I believe IDEA fills out of the box. You could always write a plugin for the database elements whilst metadata and basic UML are already available as plugins and will play some part of JetBrains new official Fabrique web framework from what I can tell which should be released next year. I believe JetBrains are also looking into MDP very seriously.

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By the way I don't work for JetBrains and cannot speak for them on any of these issues, once the holidays are over they could probably tell you much more themselves.

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By the way I don't work for JetBrains and cannot
speak for them on any of these issues, once the
holidays are over they could probably tell you much
more themselves.


thank you for your efforts.

Comments and especially requests for clarification are very welcome.

But please, whenever possible, ask within the context of my original writings .

What you have interpreted as "rude and rather arrogant tone" is my personal sterile writing style.

once more, thank your for you efforts.



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--
http://lazaridis.com

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What the heck is your problem?

as long as the stack on which my application runs is based on open-source.


What "stack" you need? You can write your own open source one in 5
minutes :p

Tom

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Rob Bradley wrote:

I read all your posts through a number of times, the problem is that no matter how many times I read it still doesn't make a great deal of sense.


I think the context is something like this: He's evaluating IDEs based
on his own personal requirements, writing up the evaluation in his own
terms, and then posting the evaluation for the community's benefit (to
see how someone evaluated the IDE). (If he happens to also suggest
consulting work, I don't see any harm in that.)

I've read his other evaluations. They seem to be very detailed, and from
the point-of-view of someone very passionate that software should work
the way he would like it to work (from a user-experience perspective,
for example). He seems well-meaning, but some people are not accustomed
to his writing style and might take things personally or offensively.
I'm quite sure he doesn't mean to provoke. He's just presenting his
opinions.

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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Thomas Singer (MoTJ) wrote:

What the heck is your problem?


efficiency.

please review the original post.

>> as long as the stack on which my application runs is based on
>> open-source.


What "stack" you need? You can write your own open source one in 5
minutes :p


5 minutes are not enouth.

neither for writing a stack.

nor for understanding my problem.

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http://lazaridis.com

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Yeah it was my fault, I completely misunderstood the intentions behind the posts. His posting style appears to be just to present the facts with very little background information and no argument, it just completely threw me as I was struggling to find the logic behind his evaluation so I could put it in context of how best to answer his queries. I understand now though after thoroughly reading his website and posts to other newsgroups and had come to a similar conclusion as yourself.

I disagree somewhat with some of his concepts (everything should be automated etc) however, like Ilias, I would be keen to see better database (similar to JDeveloper) and UML integration in IDEA and MDP obviously has some potential as one of the next logical steps for the product.

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Rob Bradley wrote:

Yeah it was my fault, I completely misunderstood the intentions
behind the posts. His posting style appears to be just to present the
facts with very little background information and no argument, it
just completely threw me as I was struggling to find the logic behind
his evaluation so I could put it in context of how best to answer his
queries. I understand now though after thoroughly reading his website
and posts to other newsgroups and had come to a similar conclusion as
yourself.

I disagree somewhat with some of his concepts (everything should be
automated etc)


I've clarified this requirement.

User experience is the top priority:

Thus the user controls the automations (if he like to do so):

http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html#requirements

however, like Ilias, I would be keen to see better
database (similar to JDeveloper) and UML integration in IDEA and MDP
obviously has some potential as one of the next logical steps for the
product.


.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

I like to find some java technology, which is supported within IDEA.

The technology should fulfill the following requirements:

http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html



After reading a little about fabrique, It seems that this solution could
possibly fulfill the requirements, at least partly:

http://www.jetbrains.com/fabrique/

The described product, released as open source, driven and supported by
a stable and durable commercial vendor (jetBrains) could become quickly
the no. 1 framework.

Although a commercial product, jetbrains could adopt many of the suggested constructs of jamBeans:

http://lazaridis.com/case/ide/index.html



.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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http://www.jetbrains.com/fabrique/

The described product, released as open source, driven and supported by
a stable and durable commercial vendor (jetBrains) could become quickly
the no. 1 framework.


IIRC, only the framework is open source, Fabrique itself will not be
(Jetbrains need to earn some money for food and such stuff).

Tom

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Thomas Singer (MoTJ) wrote:
>> http://www.jetbrains.com/fabrique/
>>
>> The described product, released as open source, driven and supported
>> by a stable and durable commercial vendor (jetBrains) could become
>> quickly the no. 1 framework.


IIRC, only the framework is open source, Fabrique itself will not be
(Jetbrains need to earn some money for food and such stuff).


as asked in another thread:

"
intresting.

can you please provide a pointer?

The website did not mention "open source":

http://www.jetbrains.com/fabrique/
"

[General remark: please, whenever possible, do not answer "out of
memory" but provide pointers to the information-source]

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I need to eat something too, time to shutdown.

cu tomorrow.

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--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> IIRC, only the framework is open source, Fabrique itself will not be
>> (Jetbrains need to earn some money for food and such stuff).


as asked in another thread:

"
intresting.

can you please provide a pointer?

The website did not mention "open source":

http://www.jetbrains.com/fabrique/
"


There are two major parts of Fabrique: the Fabrique framework (or
platform possibly), and the IDE called Visual Fabrique. The framework
may be broken down into separate components as well. Additionally, there
are several "Active Libraries", some are core features, some are add-ons.

The issue of open-sourcing Fabrique is not officially determined yet.
However, there is a strong indication that the core framework will have
some sort of 'open' license, possibly a true open source license. Some
of the 'add-ons' could also be open. Again, the details are not decided,
but we are thinking about it.

Visual Fabrique will very probably not be open source.

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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Rob Harwood (JetBrains) wrote:

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:


>> The website did not mention "open source":
>>
>> http://www.jetbrains.com/fabrique/
>> "


There are two major parts of Fabrique: the Fabrique framework (or
platform possibly),


You should adopt existent terminology.

Within http://www.jetbrains.com/fabrique/

you talk about "Rapid Application Development (RAD) environment".

But it's important to state "Rich Client Platform" or "Rich Internet
Client" or similar, thus potential users detect immediately the
functionality.

I'm not sure if Fabrique does provide this (Rich Client) functionality.

Of course it should.

and the IDE called Visual Fabrique.


which consists of extension plug-ins to IntelliJ IDEA.

you should call this "Visual Fabrique, IntelliJ IDEA Extension" [or
similar] when talking about it, to clarify that you use your code and
product-base as you should: modular.

The framework
may be broken down into separate components as well. Additionally, there
are several "Active Libraries", some are core features, some are add-ons.


"Active" reminds ActiveX.

should be exchanged.

The issue of open-sourcing Fabrique is not officially determined yet.
However, there is a strong indication that the core framework will have
some sort of 'open' license, possibly a true open source license. Some
of the 'add-ons' could also be open. Again, the details are not decided,
but we are thinking about it.


hope you will not make the same mistake than others.

It is important to find quickly the midway, thus the positive influence
of "open source" can be used as soon as
possible within your marketing.


Visual Fabrique will very probably not be open source.


ok

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>> Additionally, there are several "Active Libraries", some are core
>> features, some are add-ons.


"Active" reminds ActiveX.

should be exchanged.


'Active Library' is a term from Generative Programming (see the book
Generative Programming by Czarnecki).

--
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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Rob Harwood (JetBrains) wrote:

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>>> Additionally, there are several "Active Libraries", some are core
>>> features, some are add-ons.
>>
>>
>> "Active" reminds ActiveX.
>>
>> should be exchanged.


'Active Library' is a term from Generative Programming (see the book
Generative Programming by Czarnecki).


A black book with a cat? (if I remember right).

One of the very few books which i've read, an intresting one [although
partialy overflown].

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I believe most people would think "ActiveX" and not "Generative
Programming".

But I could be wrong.

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--
http://lazaridis.com

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