WebSphere
Is there ever going to be support for IBM WebSphere Application Server for
IDEA ?
--
Tony Morris
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform (1.4)
Sun Certified Developer for the Java 2 Platform
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now not
"Tony Morris" <removethisdibblego@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
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I've asked serveral times and Jetbrains has said "Not enough customer want
WebSphere support"! WebSphere is only the #1 J2EE server in the world! I'm
still a WebLogic person but support both J2EE servers as that's what Fortune
1000 customers use.
WebSphere 5.1 even comes with IBM written custom Ant tasks that allow you to
automatically deploy/hot redeploy an application and more. Surely Jetbrains
could use these IBM "supported" tasks for their initial support of
WebSphere.
Bryan
"Tony Morris" <removethisdibblego@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
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I wish.
Bryan Althaus wrote:
It is? by what standard of counting?
Also the "Not enough customer want WebSphere support" has nothing to do
with whether WS is #1 or not, if it even is, it has to do with JetBrains
customers are not asking for it enough for them to warrant spending
cycles in this particular EAP to write a plugin for it. In other words,
adding this support won't sell more licenses, hence money won't be paid
for the effort to write it.
I think that JB needs to support a slew of app servers, including
WebSphere, but they need to do it right and in due time... hopefully
4.1, but not likely I think.
Once the J2EE API is opened, I'm sure someone will write it, as will
many other app servers support.
Friendly,
R
+1
"Robert S. Sfeir" <robert@codepuccino.com> wrote in message
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Actually, it should be possible to use any jsr-45 compliant app server with the jsr-45 plugin. I think the jsr-45 support in Aurora is much more significant than the WebLogic integration.
You can use it with WebLogic to debug JSPs, which the WebLogic integration itself doesn't even support yet.
I don't know if WebSphere supports jsr-45 yet, so I'm not sure you can use this for WebSphere.
I'm pretty sure you'll see the first versions within a couple of days once the J2EE API is opened up.
Maarten
Yeah, I just started and was pointed to WSAD, and I'd much rather use Idea, so I'm trying...
Let's not start whining about particular servers (and certainly not be offensive with silly claims like 'but my server is #1!'). Instead, vote for the j2ee API being opened up. That way vendors and enthusiasms are free to write plugins to support their appservers.
Why is it techies can't have a civil conversation w/o insulting people? I mean it's really sad (see slashdot.org). Apparently if you ask for a feature that someone like Hani does not want this is "whinning". If you say how can you not support the #1 J2EE server Hani feels this is "offensive and silly". I mean are we in 3rd grade Hani? Just give people the same repect you expect from them. ]]>
In the USA, I work on Wall St., IBM WebSphere and BEA's WebSphere are
Fortune 1000 company standards, period. So a company either runs WebSphere
or WebLogic. If you take a job at Morgan Stanley get read to develop under
WebSphere as that's their company standard.
IBM has stated that they are #1 in sales based on the fact that almost every
Fortune 1000 company has some MQSeries or DB2 installed somewhere. From
there it's not hard for IBM to put a package deal together that includes
WebSphere. Next thing you know a WebLogic shop has gone WebSphere. BEA
does not have this HUGE advantage. NOTE: As I said I'm a Weblogic person
but I don't control what companies use!
It's a chicken and egg problem. Jetbrains says "customers" have not asked
for WebSphere support but by definition a "customer" means they already use
intelliJ! What about all the WebSphere Application Studio developers who
are dying to move on to something better? They aren't going to become
"customers" of intelliJ until Webspher is support out of the box.
As a consultant I get paid to develop NOT setup and configure intelliJ. If
my J2EE container is not supported "out of the box" that's a problem.
But my post was because Jetbrains has stated they "will not support
Websphere" not that they won't support it in 4.0. I can get by hacking with
"Ant" for now but yea, I'd like to see the same level of support for
WebSphere as 4.0 has for WebLogic. Call me a whinner! :)
Bryan
P.S. Note, the custom Ant tasks that come with WebSphere 5.1 should give
the intelliJ team a good head start.
"Hani Suleiman" <hani@formicary.net> wrote in message
news:17025114.1076734658530.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...
offensive with silly claims like 'but my server is #1!'). Instead, vote for
the j2ee API being opened up. That way vendors and enthusiasms are free to
write plugins to support their appservers.
Robert, read my follow-up post to Hani about WAS #1, etc. But remember
"customer" means they are already an intelliJ user. What about all the
Websphere Studio Application Developer developers who'd like to switch? In
the WebSphere world it seems everyone uses WSAD by default as there' no
other choice.
I'd rather have Jetbrains go after these potential customers than C#
customers with an all new product but we now have resharper so....
"Robert S. Sfeir" <robert@codepuccino.com> wrote in message
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Bryan Althaus wrote:
I'm not sure who you mean is being offensive. I din't meant to, and it
didn't sound like Hanni didn't either.
You make the point that fortune 1000 companies use WebSphere, if they're
so hard up on this standard, there HAS to be a standard for the IDE,
it's the nature of the business, and hence if they're 'shoving' an app
server down their own throats, they're most likely doing the same with
an IDE, and JetBrains isn't one of them not because they don't support
that App Server, but because some real good sales guy came up to the
CTO's office, made buddy with him, and convinced him that JBuilder or
WSAD is the right way to go... because they're big names, used by again
'a lot' of people. If JB DID support WL and WS, the market is taken and
it is usually highly unlikely a F1000 will just change their IDE because
1-2 developers like it. It has to come from the top, and they will take
into account loss of productivity time due to the fact that most, if not
all, developers will have to learn the tool.
If you want support to the level of WL, don't be so happy, everything I
hear so far is that the support is so so... and fortune 1000 companies
are not going to go for a product which has a half-assed implementation
of an app server (see: no jsp debugging support in the plugin itself
among other things)
R
Assertion: if they dictate WebSphere, they'll dictate WSAD also.
Not true. The higher-ups make these decisions, and they are less likely to dig down into things like editors/IDEs. So I'll accept help here, but i'd guess where 75% or more of big companies will settle on WL or WS, maybe only 30% of those will insist on the IDE.
Now if they've gotten a package deal, which is often the case, they will be hesitant to shell out more $$ for a "second IDE" until their most senior people who are listened to will promise better productivity/reliability from that investment - which IDEA surely does deliver on.
You know, I was being fairly civil (by my standards), and as surprising as this reversal of roles might be, it really does look like you're being rather rude.
For one thing, good for you for working with Wall St firms, you know what? So do I. So don't try your 'my job is more serious than your job' penis waggling.
Yes, Websphere is deployed very heavily in these firms. Even more heavily in Europe (where I also do a lot of work, while we're comparing job 'seriousness'). You know what? The decision is never, EVER made by a developer. Every single developer I know either a) doesn't know any other appserver, so has no problem with Websphere, or b) Knows something else, and hates websphere with a passion.
You know how Websphere gets in? Exactly as someone else in this thread said. Some IBM sales guy wines and dines some upper management guy, who then plops down for a bunch of licenses. Believe it or not, these days I'm seeing a whole bunch of people switching away from it (yes, even to things like JBoss). A move to websphere from some other vendor is very very rare (I personally haven't seen any). In such an environment IDEA doesn't have a hope in hell, since technical people are just told what they need to buy and use, and they have to deal with it. Technical merit is utterly irrelevant.
Anyway, this is becoming off-topic. I find the weblogic only support just as frustrating, but my solution isn't to whine for pramati, jboss, orion, trifork, jrun, or any particular vendor just because my tiny little world view happens to be filled with it. Other people use other servers, and opening up the API will mean that ALL servers can be supported, not just Morgan Stanley's choice.
Dave Goldstein wrote:
my response: What Hani said just after this...
package deal, no idea, forget it, it costs money.
R
Hani, I'll leave the penis waggling to you. Man, what a wanker!
"Hani Suleiman" <hani@formicary.net> wrote in message
news:9029279.1076779883910.JavaMail.itn@is.intellij.net...
this reversal of roles might be, it really does look like you're being
rather rude.
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So do I. So don't try your 'my job is more serious than your job' penis
waggling.
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in Europe (where I also do a lot of work, while we're comparing job
'seriousness'). You know what? The decision is never, EVER made by a
developer. Every single developer I know either a) doesn't know any other
appserver, so has no problem with Websphere, or b) Knows something else, and
hates websphere with a passion.
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said. Some IBM sales guy wines and dines some upper management guy, who then
plops down for a bunch of licenses. Believe it or not, these days I'm seeing
a whole bunch of people switching away from it (yes, even to things like
JBoss). A move to websphere from some other vendor is very very rare (I
personally haven't seen any). In such an environment IDEA doesn't have a
hope in hell, since technical people are just told what they need to buy and
use, and they have to deal with it. Technical merit is utterly irrelevant.
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as frustrating, but my solution isn't to whine for pramati, jboss, orion,
trifork, jrun, or any particular vendor just because my tiny little world
view happens to be filled with it. Other people use other servers, and
opening up the API will mean that ALL servers can be supported, not just
Morgan Stanley's choice.
Amen Hani!
Rarely are the technical people consulted on what things should be used. Just "comes from the top". I think if most developers had their choice, it wouldn't be WL or WS. Just too much bulk that isn't used.
Patrick
"Robert S. Sfeir" <robert@codepuccino.com> wrote in message
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Being involved in that whole process for a F500 I can tell you that your
guess of how things work is mostly wrong.
First off, standards get set for primarily one reason... cost. Consolidate
licenses, get better prices, etc. etc. So, if you show that you can buy 200
seats of WSAD for 860k, and the same thing using IntelliJ costs only 100k,
that will be hard for the busines to just ignore. Sadly, which is the
better or more productive product isn't as important, just if they are 'good
enough'. Given that IntelliJ is a pretty sweet IDE, your corp lead techie
guy who gives direction in those areas might be inclined to include it (if
he knows about it), and if it has average support for their current
development platform (e.g. WebSphere). Even in the case where a large corp
has a package deal with a vendor, there is still going to be a cost, and I
don't see IBM ever discounting WSAD down to the price of IntelliJ. Jetbrain
seems to be missing this angle as they seem to market to the individual
developer, with no strong business benefits message.
Also, if you take a look at the market numbers (like from gartner),
WebSphere is clearly the worldwide market leader with something like 30% of
the market, with BEA trailing at 8%. I'm not saying that WS is better, but
IBM is outselling WL.
Count me as one who wishes IntelliJ had integrated support for WebSphere.
Not to mention that they need to address Web Services in some fashion as
well.
- z
"Bryan Althaus" <bryan@panix.com> wrote in message
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I'm
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I've investigated those Ant tasks, only to find a lack of documentation on
their use.
I could only find the javadoc, and unfortunately, general intuition applied
to using custom Ant tasks failed.
--
Tony Morris
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform (1.4)
Sun Certified Developer for the Java 2 Platform
I also work for a F500 company and I would agree with John Z on his
assessment of the process. I am an architect for a team of 20 J2EE
developers and involved in many of the committees that set the standards.
More often I see IBM selected because we have had IBM in house forever and
not because they are the best choice. There is a saying that "No one ever
got fired by going with IBM". If IntelliJ IDEA had better support for
Websphere and ClearCase I would have ignored the corporate standard and
bought 20 licenses of IntelliJ IDEA instead of 20 licenses of WSAD. I
believe I could have easily sold my management on IntelliJ by arguing that
it is significantly cheaper and my developers will be significantly more
productive. Our success than would make a great case for changing the
corporate standard. However, even the developers wouldn't choose an IDE that
doesn't support the application server and SCM solution. I still use
IntelliJ IDEA at home, but I rather have it has my standard IDE at work.
-alex
On 2/16/04 3:12 PM, in article c0r87q$njn$1@is.intellij.net, "John Z"
<zedi_master-j@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> You make the point that fortune 1000 companies use WebSphere, if they're
>> so hard up on this standard, there HAS to be a standard for the IDE,
>> it's the nature of the business, and hence if they're 'shoving' an app
>> server down their own throats, they're most likely doing the same with
>> an IDE, and JetBrains isn't one of them not because they don't support
>> that App Server, but because some real good sales guy came up to the
>> CTO's office, made buddy with him, and convinced him that JBuilder or
>> WSAD is the right way to go... because they're big names, used by again
>> 'a lot' of people. If JB DID support WL and WS, the market is taken and
>> it is usually highly unlikely a F1000 will just change their IDE because
>> 1-2 developers like it. It has to come from the top, and they will take
>> into account loss of productivity time due to the fact that most, if not
>> all, developers will have to learn the tool.
People should get fired for going with IBM. WAS 5 does not fully implement the JMS API, says they have JMX, but barely use it, has deployment descriptors that are near impossible to read, and hence ties you to using Studio to get some of their "special features", and to top this all off, is a HUGE memory hog!
if my clients didn't make the same bad decisions as your company, no one would use WAS, imho. but, when did management ever listen to the techies ...
+1
oh, and, don't get me wrong, I would love this support in IDEA. Better to have IDEA + WAS and Studio + WAS.
sorry for the rants, but, it has been a long day of struggling w/ studio/was
I have found that sometimes you can get IDEA to run the container even without it being integrated like Weblogic is. I started using OC4J (Oracle's container) and have switched to WebSphere with my new job. I hate having to WSAD beucase it doesn't have the nice features I have come to love in IDEA.
But I have been working on trying to found out Java Class that I need to call to start WebSphere and the parameters that it needs. That way I can tell IntelliJ to use that as it's main to run when starting the container. It probably won't allow me to debug JSP's (which I couldn't do with OC4J), but I could debug classes, and I got to use Intellij.
Does anyone know where I might find this answer? Then at least we can start to use IntelliJ for websphere, until we can convince IntelliJ Mangement to spend time developing the integration tools.
Josh Smith wrote:
Look into ]]>/AppServer/bin/startupServer.sh
You'll also need to trace throught the setupCmdLine.sh script (same
location) to figure out the correct startup parameters & classpath.
CU,
Edwin
or just use remote debugging. update the startup scripts to include the remote debugging values (displayed in the IDEA debug window)and start websphere manually.
hi.
Is anyone able to start websphere manually and do remote debugging with the "light" version of WS that ships with SWAD?
If so, any tips, or links to info, on how to set this up would be greatly appreciated.
Florian
Florian Hehlen wrote:
Yes - this works. You will have to (manually) edit the startup scripts,
and the default server config. When you run The Beast from inside WSAD
the 'normal' startupscripts/config aren't used, so you'll have to tweak
them yourself (mainly stuff like paths - no biggie).
Btw - the configuration that the integrated version uses is in
]]>/.metadata/.plugins/com.ibm.etools.server.core/tm
p0/looseconfig.xmi or similar.
You'll also have to make log directories - not created by default.
Cu,
Edwin
Tried that. In fact found a pretty good piece of info about that from a diffenent post in the forums. But still getting some errors. Any ideas of other places that I might be able to check?
Josh Smith wrote:
What errors do you get? And what version of WAS are you using? Btw - the
'occasional disconnect' problem is not exclusive to remote debugging
with WAS, it seems.
CU,
Edwin
I am Intellij customer and would definitely like WebSphere suport in IDEA.
While many places do use RAD/WSAD + WebSphere, some places don't - or perhaps wouldn't if they had a choice between RAD and something like IDEA. I think it probably is worthwhile supporting it.
It would sure make IDEA an easier sell for me to those clients. In addition, I'd be able to use IDEA more myself which I grant is purely a selfish reason.
Thanks, Spencer