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hi.

I think there may be some truth in what you and others say in your blog. But we must all remember that the EAP program is not a one way street. JetBrains have responsibilities, but so do developers.

I have been participating in EAP almost since the beginning and something has changed here. Intellij has always had some buggy builds, intellij has always had some memory eating builds. But intellij has never had as many people complaining and whining(different than reporting it BTW) about bugs and how much time we have to wait for new builds.

We are supposed to provide feedback! When I was first participating in EAP the discussions were all about what new features would make sense; what refinements to existing features would be good. There was no place for long-winded threads about wether or not IntelliJ new what they were doing; no threatening; no flame wars.

I am not saying that there is no place for this. Just that EAP is not a place for trying to blackmail JetBrains. It's a privileged forum/process that almost no other software company out there offers.

So if EAP fails it will not be just JetBrains fault. For myself, I have recently decided to try and get back into the process and participate... not just complain about bugs.

Florian Hehlen

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I don't see a problem, if an EAP version is buggy - the EAP is to preview and test, so U use it at your own risk. But U're absolutely right - the EAP got full of people asking for new build every day, without providing any feedback or new ideas. The forums are getting full of words that say nothing :-(. Too bad.

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Hello, wangchunyang!
You wrote on Fri, 21 May 2004 07:04:19 +0400 (MSD):

w> look:
w> http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_
w> consequently_loses_its

And? His actualy not used IDEA, and his like Eclipse. So - this comment only
from one point. I'm not like Eclipse and used IDEA for a long time, and i
keep using it...

BTW, EAP build is bugly, becouse it EAP... If somebody not understand this,
then i think it his troubles :)

Alexey Efimov - Java Developer
Tops BI
http://www.topsbi.com


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I'm not sure I really agree with your comment about IDEA 4.0 being bloated with features many will never use, the only 4.0 feature I see as particularly specialist is the GUI Designer which I think should have been a pluggable (or more importantly un-pluggable) component. Other than that the features 4.0 introduced will likely be used in every project.

I think that things like JSP refactoring and full JSP2 support would have been much more innovative and useful than yet another GUI Designer, but I can't really fault JetBrains for one bad idea (IMO) in an otherwise nice upgrade.

I have to say that 4.0 probably wasn't worth the upgrade price for me as currently stands, however it will be when 4.1 comes out which is free for 4.0 licensees so I can't really complain about having to wait a couple more months for some features I feel I will use quite heavily. Especially since I have been able to use the past couple of months to get used to the new 4.0 interface ready for 4.1 release which should be out June / July from what I've read here.

I agree with Florian that EAP is a developers responsibility as much, if not more, than it is JetBrains, and it is a great privilege to have as a developer to partake in the progress of your favorite tool. Anybody judging IDEA from EAP builds is way off base IMO because unless an EAP build has reached release candidate status at the earliest you should consider it an Alpha release stage build and thus bugs are not only common, they are expected.

Eclipse is feature-packed for J2EE and as I've said before in other threads I do worry that IDEA is starting to lag behind in that aspect, however Eclipse is also implementing a lot of wizards, API / framework specifics and other things I will never even use. If IDEA can succeed in giving J2EE the same support they have given standard Java they will undoubtedly be able to not only compete with Eclipse but allow J2EE developers to "develop with pleasure" which is something I could never say about Eclipse or any other IDE for that matter.

Incidentally there is also a real opportunity for JetBrains to take a strangle-hold on the J2ME market, if they choose to do so, as I've seen very little good J2ME support in any of the leading IDEs.

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from a comment by Kevin at http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its

IDEA has gone in to what is called "maintenance mode". All the really brilliant guys who originally developed this have moved in to something else. Mostly the C# and web app tools they are developing or whatever. Only a fraction of them now remains there.

---
I think it's true: ReSharper / Fabrique is consuming
Jetbrains manpower.
With IDEA 3.0 EAP I know of some real world applications
that habe been build with the EAP version!!!
(And later the company bought lots of licenses... but
the stable EAP versions were the brilliant way to get
the "foot in the door" ;)
Today I would not recommend IDEA EAP versions to anybody
for production work...

Even the 1000 very little details IDEA suprised us with
in "former times" (Sigh ;) are just missing - or they
are "to be discussed"...

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I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.

Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading through
his visitor's comments, the only things that were mentioned were:
-SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is better,
easier)
-Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how often?)
-Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and Eclipse
doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)

OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.

Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you want
the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For enduring the bugs
(I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I get the new features first
and I get to give feedback.


Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




wangchunyang wrote:

>look:
>
>http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its

>

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Norris,
try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY close
to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.
I'm not talking about SWT or theories about plugins infrastructure -
just fundamentals of Java coding.

Definitely should cause a worry in Prague, Leningrad or Petersburg.

r.

Norris Shelton wrote:

I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.

Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading through
his visitor's comments, the only things that were mentioned were:
-SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is better,
easier)
-Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how often?)
-Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and Eclipse
doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)

OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.
Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you want
the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For enduring the bugs
(I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I get the new features first
and I get to give feedback.


Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




wangchunyang wrote:

>> look:
>>
>> http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its
>>
>>
>>

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Now we are getting better. Can you give specific examples of how it is
better?

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Richard Nemec wrote:

Norris,
try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY close
to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.
I'm not talking about SWT or theories about plugins infrastructure -
just fundamentals of Java coding.

>

Definitely should cause a worry in Prague, Leningrad or Petersburg.

>

r.

>

Norris Shelton wrote:

>
>> I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.
>>
>> Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading
>> through his visitor's comments, the only things that were mentioned
>> were:
>> -SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is better,
>> easier)
>> -Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how often?)
>> -Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and Eclipse
>> doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)
>>
>> OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.
>> Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you
>> want the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For enduring
>> the bugs (I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I get the new
>> features first and I get to give feedback.
>>
>>
>> Norris Shelton
>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> wangchunyang wrote:
>>
>>> look:
>>>
>>> http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its
>>>
>>>
>>>

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RN> Norris,
RN> try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
RN> and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
RN> some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY
RN> close to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.

Sad but true. Unlike a couple of years ago, I can't really come up with convincing arguments when trying to explain why I think IDEA is better than Eclipse. I sticked with it because it feels natural to me, I got so used to it that I use its shortcuts even when I write emails (without obtaining the desired result, of course :).

But other than that, I don't know how one can justify the price these days, especially when one can get pretty much the same functionality for free.

I'm pretty sure old users will stick with it for a while (I know I will), but I'm not that sure it will still manage to beat Eclipse in new deals. And I really hope JetBrains won't settle for upgrade fees only, we all know they can do better.

Andrei

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Now we are getting better. Can you give specific examples of how it is
better?


What I like with Eclipse is, that it looks very professional (again,
no SWT vs. Swing stuff!), very polished.

What I like with IDEA are these little, but very powerful features.

Tom

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Norris,
For me it is/was mostly:
- source folders with package prefix (or include) - finally solved in IDEA
- class creation and similar dialogs
- flexible views (filters and working sets in many of them - package,
navigation, searches, tasks,...)
- promise of exceptional J2EE support (MyEclipse) - still to prove to be that
good (M9 version due in a week or so)

Also, when I tried it few weeks ago, I had previous negative experience
with older versions of Eclipse. This time I was shocked (same as first
night with IDEA) - the feel was very enjoyable (for me as well as for
coding effectiveness).

r.

P.S. I have not converted yet, but quite close.
P.P.S. You asked only about advantages of Eclipse, right?


Norris Shelton wrote:

Now we are getting better. Can you give specific examples of how it is
better?

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Richard Nemec wrote:

>> Norris,
>> try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
>> and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
>> some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY close
>> to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.
>> I'm not talking about SWT or theories about plugins infrastructure -
>> just fundamentals of Java coding.
>>
>> Definitely should cause a worry in Prague, Leningrad or Petersburg.
>>
>> r.
>>
>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>
>>> I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.
>>>
>>> Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading
>>> through his visitor's comments, the only things that were mentioned
>>> were:
>>> -SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is better,
>>> easier)
>>> -Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how often?)
>>> -Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and Eclipse
>>> doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)
>>>
>>> OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.
>>> Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you
>>> want the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For enduring
>>> the bugs (I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I get the new
>>> features first and I get to give feedback.
>>>
>>>
>>> Norris Shelton
>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> wangchunyang wrote:
>>>
>>>> look:
>>>>
>>>> http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

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Well... I don't have the luxury of using v3.0 M9 cause we are doing development for websphere and we are stuck with WSAD 5.0.

So IDEA still is a big help. I guess I should look at eclipse 3 but unless they have done major changes and I will not soon be changing camps.

IDEA is superior in the details. Integration across the app is just amazing. In Eclipse I keep on looking for features cause they move/disappear depending what view/perspective you are in. And the complete inability to configure the key-bindings and limited syntax highlighting really gets to me.

Anyway I could go on about 100 of details that I have become dependent on. One particular one actually that everyone who comes to my desk talks about is the syntax highlighting. I use every single bit of syntax highlighting they provide. AND it's not just to make it look COOL!!! it most absolutely helps me read the code quickly. It's not a core feature... but something I just have come to depend on.

At the end of the day how a dev app performs is not based on a checklist of feature. It's much more qualitative than that. For me it all resumes to the fact that I have been able to mold IDEA to work the way I want it to work. As opposed to all other dev tools I have used in the past... where the usual comment is "Give it some time, and you'll figure out where things are". Mediocre tools force me to adapt to them, I think great tools adapt to me.

Finally, lets put energy back into making IDEA well ahead of the bunch. I think there is still a whole lot of big and small ideas for JetBrains to integrate.

Florian Hehlen

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And the complete inability to configure the key-bindings ...


??? I've tuned eclipse to nearly have IDEA accelerators. Well, not
everything is possible and it is very hard to find the right actions,
but it is possible since ages.

Tom

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concerning the manpower and IDEA-maintenance:
Maybe we will have in a couple of weeks a few more developers improving IDEA, because google is planning a local file-search-tool, which searches informations on your harddisk (not only filenames, but also content). With this tool nobody needs OmniMea anymore, an i would guess that intellij stops the development of it.
Although i love Intellij and understand that they want to grow, i never liked them to start with c#-products, so i am not unhappy with the google-plans.

greetings

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And the complete inability to configure the

key-bindings ...

??? I've tuned eclipse to nearly have IDEA
accelerators. Well, not
everything is possible and it is very hard to find
the right actions,
but it is possible since ages.

Tom



well... I should clarify here that I use WSAD which is eclipse plus the whole websphere environment. And I guess it's not the same as using simple Eclipse.

Florian

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Hello watzlaw,

w> Maybe we will have in a couple of weeks a few more developers
w> improving IDEA, because google is planning a local file-search-tool,
w> which searches informations on your harddisk (not only filenames, but
w> also content). With this tool nobody needs OmniMea anymore, an i
w> would guess that intellij stops the development of it.

I don't know if you are serious, but you can rest assured that this is not the case. Search is only one of many features of OmniaMea, and even if someone releases a free and perfectly working search tool right now, this would not be a reason for us to abandon the project (which is quite close to the initial release, actually).

--
Dmitry Jemerov
OmniaMea Project Leader
JetBrains, Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"

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Florian, I agree with you that syntax highlighting became much more than
just a cool feature.
And I missed that in old Eclipse year ago. I missed some of it few weeks ago.
Now, in Eclipse you can mark differently constants (static final fields)
and regular static fields, etc. It's getting VERY good.

I may sound like trying to convert people to Eclipse. Not my goal.
Just want people to see both sides and notice how far both got.
And to raise the competitiveness so that we as developers can benefit of it.

r.

Florian Hehlen wrote:

Anyway I could go on about 100 of details that I have become dependent on.
One particular one actually that everyone who comes to my desk talks about is
the syntax highlighting. I use every single bit of syntax highlighting they
provide. AND it's not just to make it look COOL!!! it most absolutely helps
me read the code quickly. It's not a core feature... but something I just
have come to depend on.

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1) we have now
2) I've been asking for this, but everyone shoots me down. What's wrong
with a wizard to create a class - let me specify the superclass, etc.
3) Can you give me an example?
4) Promises, promises. Does that mean JSP 2.0 support?

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Richard Nemec wrote:

Norris,
For me it is/was mostly:
- source folders with package prefix (or include) - finally solved in
IDEA
- class creation and similar dialogs
- flexible views (filters and working sets in many of them - package,
navigation, searches, tasks,...)
- promise of exceptional J2EE support (MyEclipse) - still to prove to
be that
good (M9 version due in a week or so)

>

Also, when I tried it few weeks ago, I had previous negative experience
with older versions of Eclipse. This time I was shocked (same as first
night with IDEA) - the feel was very enjoyable (for me as well as for
coding effectiveness).

>

r.

>

P.S. I have not converted yet, but quite close.
P.P.S. You asked only about advantages of Eclipse, right?

>
>

Norris Shelton wrote:

>
>> Now we are getting better. Can you give specific examples of how it
>> is better?
>>
>> Norris Shelton
>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Nemec wrote:
>>
>>> Norris,
>>> try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
>>> and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
>>> some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY close
>>> to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.
>>> I'm not talking about SWT or theories about plugins infrastructure -
>>> just fundamentals of Java coding.
>>>
>>> Definitely should cause a worry in Prague, Leningrad or Petersburg.
>>>
>>> r.
>>>
>>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>>
>>>> I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.
>>>>
>>>> Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading
>>>> through his visitor's comments, the only things that were mentioned
>>>> were:
>>>> -SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is
>>>> better, easier)
>>>> -Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how
>>>> often?)
>>>> -Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and
>>>> Eclipse doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)
>>>>
>>>> OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.
>>>> Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you
>>>> want the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For
>>>> enduring the bugs (I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I get
>>>> the new features first and I get to give feedback.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Norris Shelton
>>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> wangchunyang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> look:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

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You lost me. Which features are you talking about that Eclipse has and
IntelliJ does not? Is the syntax highlighting an example? If so, can
you post a screen shot of the same code in both editors so I can see the
difference?

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Florian Hehlen wrote:

>Well... I don't have the luxury of using v3.0 M9 cause we are doing development for websphere and we are stuck with WSAD 5.0.
>
>So IDEA still is a big help. I guess I should look at eclipse 3 but unless they have done major changes and I will not soon be changing camps.
>
>IDEA is superior in the details. Integration across the app is just amazing. In Eclipse I keep on looking for features cause they move/disappear depending what view/perspective you are in. And the complete inability to configure the key-bindings and limited syntax highlighting really gets to me.
>
>Anyway I could go on about 100 of details that I have become dependent on. One particular one actually that everyone who comes to my desk talks about is the syntax highlighting. I use every single bit of syntax highlighting they provide. AND it's not just to make it look COOL!!! it most absolutely helps me read the code quickly. It's not a core feature... but something I just have come to depend on.
>
>At the end of the day how a dev app performs is not based on a checklist of feature. It's much more qualitative than that. For me it all resumes to the fact that I have been able to mold IDEA to work the way I want it to work. As opposed to all other dev tools I have used in the past... where the usual comment is "Give it some time, and you'll figure out where things are". Mediocre tools force me to adapt to them, I think great tools adapt to me.
>
>Finally, lets put energy back into making IDEA well ahead of the bunch. I think there is still a whole lot of big and small ideas for JetBrains to integrate.
>
>Florian Hehlen
>

>

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3) you can specify a filter that gets applied to the tree or list elements
(priority, "only this file", select types of entries, regex filtering, etc.)
Workset is typically a selection of folders/packages/individual files that
you want to define, give it a name and at any time use it in these views.
Completely concrete example: I am working on 3 packages plus need to have
at hand 5 more. I have working set that filters those and I see only what i
need. I can use the workset in filters or in package explorer or in others.

4) MyEclipse.com already has the plugin. And many people claim it's exceptional.
Just didn't try it, yet (doesn't work with M9). So the promise is quite real.


Norris Shelton wrote:

1) we have now
2) I've been asking for this, but everyone shoots me down. What's wrong
with a wizard to create a class - let me specify the superclass, etc.
3) Can you give me an example?
4) Promises, promises. Does that mean JSP 2.0 support?

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Richard Nemec wrote:

>> Norris,
>> For me it is/was mostly:
>> - source folders with package prefix (or include) - finally solved in
>> IDEA
>> - class creation and similar dialogs
>> - flexible views (filters and working sets in many of them - package,
>> navigation, searches, tasks,...)
>> - promise of exceptional J2EE support (MyEclipse) - still to prove to
>> be that
>> good (M9 version due in a week or so)
>>
>> Also, when I tried it few weeks ago, I had previous negative experience
>> with older versions of Eclipse. This time I was shocked (same as first
>> night with IDEA) - the feel was very enjoyable (for me as well as for
>> coding effectiveness).
>>
>> r.
>>
>> P.S. I have not converted yet, but quite close.
>> P.P.S. You asked only about advantages of Eclipse, right?
>>
>>
>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>
>>> Now we are getting better. Can you give specific examples of how it
>>> is better?
>>>
>>> Norris Shelton
>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Nemec wrote:
>>>
>>>> Norris,
>>>> try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
>>>> and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
>>>> some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY close
>>>> to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.
>>>> I'm not talking about SWT or theories about plugins infrastructure -
>>>> just fundamentals of Java coding.
>>>>
>>>> Definitely should cause a worry in Prague, Leningrad or Petersburg.
>>>>
>>>> r.
>>>>
>>>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading
>>>>> through his visitor's comments, the only things that were mentioned
>>>>> were:
>>>>> -SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is
>>>>> better, easier)
>>>>> -Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how
>>>>> often?)
>>>>> -Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and
>>>>> Eclipse doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.
>>>>> Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you
>>>>> want the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For
>>>>> enduring the bugs (I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I get
>>>>> the new features first and I get to give feedback.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Norris Shelton
>>>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> wangchunyang wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> look:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

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3) That sounds like a good idea. Will you submit that as an enhancement?
4) JSP 2.0 support?

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer




Richard Nemec wrote:

3) you can specify a filter that gets applied to the tree or list
elements
(priority, "only this file", select types of entries, regex
filtering, etc.)
Workset is typically a selection of folders/packages/individual files
that
you want to define, give it a name and at any time use it in these views.
Completely concrete example: I am working on 3 packages plus need to have
at hand 5 more. I have working set that filters those and I see only
what i need. I can use the workset in filters or in package explorer
or in others.

>

4) MyEclipse.com already has the plugin. And many people claim it's
exceptional.
Just didn't try it, yet (doesn't work with M9). So the promise is
quite real.

>
>

Norris Shelton wrote:

>
>> 1) we have now
>> 2) I've been asking for this, but everyone shoots me down. What's
>> wrong with a wizard to create a class - let me specify the
>> superclass, etc.
>> 3) Can you give me an example?
>> 4) Promises, promises. Does that mean JSP 2.0 support?
>>
>> Norris Shelton
>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Nemec wrote:
>>
>>> Norris,
>>> For me it is/was mostly:
>>> - source folders with package prefix (or include) - finally solved
>>> in IDEA
>>> - class creation and similar dialogs
>>> - flexible views (filters and working sets in many of them - package,
>>> navigation, searches, tasks,...)
>>> - promise of exceptional J2EE support (MyEclipse) - still to prove
>>> to be that
>>> good (M9 version due in a week or so)
>>>
>>> Also, when I tried it few weeks ago, I had previous negative experience
>>> with older versions of Eclipse. This time I was shocked (same as first
>>> night with IDEA) - the feel was very enjoyable (for me as well as for
>>> coding effectiveness).
>>>
>>> r.
>>>
>>> P.S. I have not converted yet, but quite close.
>>> P.P.S. You asked only about advantages of Eclipse, right?
>>>
>>>
>>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we are getting better. Can you give specific examples of how
>>>> it is better?
>>>>
>>>> Norris Shelton
>>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Nemec wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Norris,
>>>>> try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
>>>>> and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
>>>>> some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY
>>>>> close
>>>>> to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.
>>>>> I'm not talking about SWT or theories about plugins infrastructure -
>>>>> just fundamentals of Java coding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Definitely should cause a worry in Prague, Leningrad or Petersburg.
>>>>>
>>>>> r.
>>>>>
>>>>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading
>>>>>> through his visitor's comments, the only things that were
>>>>>> mentioned were:
>>>>>> -SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is
>>>>>> better, easier)
>>>>>> -Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how
>>>>>> often?)
>>>>>> -Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and
>>>>>> Eclipse doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.
>>>>>> Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you
>>>>>> want the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For
>>>>>> enduring the bugs (I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I
>>>>>> get the new features first and I get to give feedback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Norris Shelton
>>>>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wangchunyang wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> look:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

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3) I believe that the WorkspacesPlugin
http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WorkspacesPlugin may give you
some of this functionality.

Tim

"Norris Shelton" <i.hate.spam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40AE49A8.5030309@yahoo.com...

3) That sounds like a good idea. Will you submit that as an enhancement?
4) JSP 2.0 support?

>

Norris Shelton
Sun Certified Java Programmer

>
>
>
>

Richard Nemec wrote:

>

3) you can specify a filter that gets applied to the tree or list
elements
(priority, "only this file", select types of entries, regex
filtering, etc.)
Workset is typically a selection of folders/packages/individual files
that
you want to define, give it a name and at any time use it in these

views.

Completely concrete example: I am working on 3 packages plus need to

have

at hand 5 more. I have working set that filters those and I see only
what i need. I can use the workset in filters or in package explorer
or in others.

>

4) MyEclipse.com already has the plugin. And many people claim it's
exceptional.
Just didn't try it, yet (doesn't work with M9). So the promise is
quite real.

>
>

Norris Shelton wrote:

>
>> 1) we have now
>> 2) I've been asking for this, but everyone shoots me down. What's
>> wrong with a wizard to create a class - let me specify the
>> superclass, etc.
>> 3) Can you give me an example?
>> 4) Promises, promises. Does that mean JSP 2.0 support?
>>
>> Norris Shelton
>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Nemec wrote:
>>
>>> Norris,
>>> For me it is/was mostly:
>>> - source folders with package prefix (or include) - finally solved
>>> in IDEA
>>> - class creation and similar dialogs
>>> - flexible views (filters and working sets in many of them - package,
>>> navigation, searches, tasks,...)
>>> - promise of exceptional J2EE support (MyEclipse) - still to prove
>>> to be that
>>> good (M9 version due in a week or so)
>>>
>>> Also, when I tried it few weeks ago, I had previous negative

experience

>>> with older versions of Eclipse. This time I was shocked (same as first
>>> night with IDEA) - the feel was very enjoyable (for me as well as for
>>> coding effectiveness).
>>>
>>> r.
>>>
>>> P.S. I have not converted yet, but quite close.
>>> P.P.S. You asked only about advantages of Eclipse, right?
>>>
>>>
>>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we are getting better. Can you give specific examples of how
>>>> it is better?
>>>>
>>>> Norris Shelton
>>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Nemec wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Norris,
>>>>> try downloading Eclipse 3.0M9 (when it is out - probably tomorrow)
>>>>> and spend some time with it. It is different from IDEA, shortcuts,
>>>>> some philosophies and mental constructs - but it is becoming VERY
>>>>> close
>>>>> to IDEA and in few usability areas it is better.
>>>>> I'm not talking about SWT or theories about plugins infrastructure -
>>>>> just fundamentals of Java coding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Definitely should cause a worry in Prague, Leningrad or Petersburg.
>>>>>
>>>>> r.
>>>>>
>>>>> Norris Shelton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I read the blog. It only reinforced my poor opinion of blogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is Eclipse better? Who knows. He never said. Even reading
>>>>>> through his visitor's comments, the only things that were
>>>>>> mentioned were:
>>>>>> -SWT (I do not and will not use java for applications - VB is
>>>>>> better, easier)
>>>>>> -Unpluggable plugins (uh, what's the point - plugins change how
>>>>>> often?)
>>>>>> -Eclipse will catch up on the features that IntelliJ has and
>>>>>> Eclipse doesn't (hmm, why does that sound like second place to me?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, duh. They have given no reason why Eclipse is better.
>>>>>> Yes - EAP is buggy - that is the cost of "bleeding edge". If you
>>>>>> want the latest-greatest, then you must pay the price. For
>>>>>> enduring the bugs (I always have 4 or 5 versions installed), I
>>>>>> get the new features first and I get to give feedback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Norris Shelton
>>>>>> Sun Certified Java Programmer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wangchunyang wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> look:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

http://jroller.com/comments/mszklano/Weblog/intellij_idea_consequently_loses_its

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>



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4) MyEclipse.com already has the plugin. And many
people claim it's exceptional.
Just didn't try it, yet (doesn't work with M9). So
the promise is quite real.


Some people that does not include you? You see, I've tried MyEclipse myself and it's not exceptional -- MyEclipse is actually just a nicely put-together (corporate users love that) collection of plugins already available. I could even say "pretty weak", but I don't want to start a bashing session.

What bothers me about eclipse is integration: Take editor settings for example: every little plugin seems to define their own editor, and you need to configure things like tab size and indentation for every one of them. After trying to setup eclipse with enough plugins to suffice the environment I have today with IDEA (and idea alone, no extra plugins beyond those already bundled), the settings tree became just overwhelming, and I couldn't get my job anything near as easy as with IDEA.

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&gt; I may sound like trying to convert people to Eclipse.
&gt; Not my goal.
&gt; Just want people to see both sides and notice how far
&gt; both got.
&gt; And to raise the competitiveness so that we as
&gt; developers can benefit of it.

Hey don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with Eclipse. And I have to admit that it's getting better every day. Part of my problem is that I am stuck with a really crappy version, for all sorts of reasons.

I am not trying to trash Eclipse. I am just trying to say that a mere checklist of features does not provide a real comparison between two tools.

Further... I am spending way to much time in this chat... I think we should spend time talking about what we want From the next versions of IDEA.

So I am pulling out of this thread for good.

EVERYONE: Do the same lets start discussing what features are missing or need refining and stop wasting JetBrains diskspace with these king-of-the-mountain discussions.

Florian

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Mea culpa.

I didn't want to start such flame war.
What I wanted is to share my opinion about what's really happening on the
market.

I am fanatic Idea user and will certainly stay with this tool until its end
(or mine) :)
But everybody oriented in Java IDE world should notice that uncredible
marketing power
of Eclipse (backed up by some very large companies like IBM) started the
migration of many
developers to Eclipse platform.

I am actively participating in EAP and making requests for new features but
I think it's time
for Jetbrainers to rethink their vision of Idea on the market. It looks like
that as a mainstream
development tool Eclipse will be the winner.

Maybe Jetbrains should target Idea to more specialized group
of developers who do not want a tool, which is maybe feature packed, but not
so intelligent.
Maybe Idea should be targeted to experienced architects and
power-programmers who will really love
its features, brilliant usability and astounding user interface.

Michal Szklanowski



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I am not trying to trash Eclipse. I am just trying to
say that a mere checklist of features does not
provide a real comparison between two tools.


Aaaah, pity!

EVERYONE: Do the same lets start discussing what
features are missing or need refining and stop
wasting JetBrains diskspace with these
king-of-the-mountain discussions.


No way, mindless bashing is way more fun!

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Norris Shelton wrote:

4) JSP 2.0 support?


According to their website, yes.
http://www.myeclipseide.com/ContentExpress-display-ceid-30.html


I'm quitting this thread. I found it interesting to introduce to
IDEA fans (that I still am, too) the alternative that is different
from what they have seen 6 months ago. No flames intended.

r.

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hi.

&gt; of developers who do not want a tool, which is maybe
&gt; feature packed, but not
&gt; so intelligent.

Not sure what you mean by "not so intelligent". If you mean by intelligence, "a tool that does voodoo in the background", I agree. I find IDEA is already one of the most intelligent piece of software I have seen. It suggests but never imposes... and hat's real intelligence.

&gt; Maybe Idea should be targeted to experienced
&gt; architects and
&gt; power-programmers who will really love
&gt; its features, brilliant usability and astounding user
&gt; interface.

I couldn't agree more.

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Thanks Michal for what was probably one of the best posts I've read around here in quite a while. Your post was succinct and to the point and encompassed pretty much the same as I've been thinking but not communicating nearly as effectively.

I agree completely with both of your points, however I don't think being aimed at a more specialist market necessarily precludes IDEA from still remaining as a market leader, just it's focal group will be different. It will still be around winning all it's current awards (potentially more) and will probably stick with a similar market share to what it already has, which for a small company is excellent.

IDEA has really put JetBrains on the map and I see no reason why it can't stay that way so long as JetBrains still view it as their premier product (as we do) and resource it as such.

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In article <c8llm6$kuh$1@is.intellij.net>,
"Michal Szklanowski" <szklanowski@nospam.aster.pl> wrote:

But everybody oriented in Java IDE world should notice that uncredible
marketing power of Eclipse (backed up by some very large companies
like IBM) started the migration of many developers to Eclipse platform.


If you think that people are using Eclipse just because of the marketing
power, then you need to try Eclipse again. Further, I suspect that you
are not properly crediting the very competent people involved with the
Eclipse project. The JetBrainers are good, but so are the Eclipse
people, which is why they both are advancing. I like that, as it means
that different ways of doing things get out in the world, and we can see
which ones work well over the long term.

I use IDEA in preference to Eclipse, as I find IDEA a better environment
for me, but I have clients that choose the other way, and they were
not wrong. Their needs differed.

If we believe that IDEA is better, then we should articulate specific
things that are better about it, and things that someone else has beaten
IDEA on. I, for example, like the new class dialogs in Eclipse, but
they are philosophically opposed to the way IDEA is designed. (They are
option heavy, one stop shops. IDEA does not work that way.)

Eclipse had built in unit test generation a year and change ago. I have
gotten used to the corresponding IDEA plugins, and find them equal
usable, but that is fairly recent. I still like the Eclipse new test
case dialog better, but again, it is probably heavier weight than most
IDEA users would like.

I have found debugging into a test case extremely valuable, and IDEA
does it very well. I hope that Eclipse puts in the sweat to get that to
work.

Dave Griffith's Metrics Reloaded plugin gives IDEA the edge, but for
over a year, the Metrics plugin for Eclipse was way ahead.

My point is that Eclipse has, in the past, offered capabilities that
IDEA did not, and if you needed those capabilities, then you used
Eclipse. Recent developments have addressed many of those capabilities,
and I am very happy about it.

The world is bigger than Eclipse and IDEA, and some ideas should be
brought in from outside. Frankly, if a powerful refactoring IDE
appeared that used a multiple window approach, I would probably switch
to it in a heartbeat. Both Eclipse and IDE take up way too much screen
real estate with toolbars, side bars, project lists, and the like,
leaving only a small amount of code visible. Eclipse has a "make panel
fill the Eclipse window" hotkey, but a real multiwindow editor would be
far superior. We still need these sidebars/toolbars/etc, but I would
hang them in a main window, with editor windows for each of my open
source files. Not everyone likes this, but it fits my tastes.

Another potential reason to use Eclipse - its behavior on your platform
or architecture. I use MacOS X on a new AlBook/1.5. Whichever IDE
works better on that platform is the better IDE for my work - two years
ago, IDEA was too slow to use, while Eclipse was merely pokey. They
both have sped up a lot.

Right now, IDEA's Swing-based implementation seems better than Eclipse's
SWT implementation. This could change, especially since there is a full
time Mac Integration person working on Eclipse. To keep up, either the
JB guys need the same, or they need to use Apple's bug reporting system
to get Apple to fix bugs that impact them.

In summary, Eclipse's success is not just based on marketing. The
Eclipse and the JB teams have different priorities and different feature
weightings. To keep IDEA relevant for each of us, we have to provide
feedback to JB about what matters to us, and what features we feel other
people have done well.

So: my wishlist: Provide a list of Apple bug numbers for which you are
awaiting workarounds, especially anything horking up the screen menu
bar. Speed optimize where you can, as it is still a bit draggy, though
far better than it was. Provide seperate windows for each source file
editor that are free of most of the toolbar stuff. Provide a way to
turn off an inspection warning in a single line of code using an
appropriate comment. Make heavier weight but more complete new class
and new test dialogs.

Scott

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